Combining MARC, MAFFI & MAFCA

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by steve s

You're right, of course--silly oversight on my part, especially since I'm one of those who belongs to both.

But, as a member of both, I am still mystified about what exactly is so awful about either club that could possibly prevent anyone from maintaining their membership in a merged entity. The magazines are both very nice, but indistinguishable. We have agreement on judging standards and joint meeting protocols. Local clubs operate relatively independently. What else is there?

Say W H A T???..........................

[brum1]

The judging standards are published jointly by MARC & MAFCA. Why would anyone dispute this Best to stick with majority rules in these types of matters and the naysayers will eventually become insignificant

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by brum1

The judging standards are published jointly by MARC & MAFCA. Why would anyone dispute this Best to stick with majority rules in these types of matters and the naysayers will eventually become insignificant

I am not going to discuss this here but it is very evident some folks are kinda naïve regarding much of this. One thought for you to ponder is why do you suppose it has taken so many years for the J/S to be updated??

[steve s]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I am not going to discuss this here but it is very evident some folks are kinda naïve regarding much of this. One thought for you to ponder is why do you suppose it has taken so many years for the J/S to be updated??

Brent,
Why not discuss it here? It sounds like it's on topic. Please enlighten the naïve amongst us. Is there a serious divide along MARC/MAFCA party lines? What's the issue? Is there talk of reneging any of the vast areas of prior agreement? Details please, if you have them. Thanks!
Steve

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by steve s

Brent,
Why not discuss it here? It sounds like it's on topic. Please enlighten the naïve amongst us. Is there a serious divide along MARC/MAFCA party lines? What's the issue? Is there talk of reneging any of the vast areas of prior agreement? Details please, if you have them. Thanks!
Steve

Steve, first off just because it is a public forum should not, --and does not give the right to discuss anything someone feels like they have the right to know. My suggestion is if you truly want to know more, --or actually be more informed, then may I suggest you become more involved in first-hand participation so you truly know what is going on. That way you are not spreading 2nd-hand hearsay.

[Mike V. Florida]

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Originally Posted by steve s

Merging and roughly doubling the size is not exactly dissolving.

One or both still goes away.

[RockHillWill]

Just a discussion between non-participants solves doesn't solve didely-squat. You guys that know me have heard me say often that the best way to tell if some one is a 'giver' or a 'taker' is: The 'taker' says "this is what I don't like, and I want YOU to do something about it", while the 'giver' says" this looks like it might be an issue and here is what WE can do to address it".

I submitted an application to join the MARC BOD as a way to give back to ALL the folks that have helped me achieve my goals regarding the Model A. I have had abundant help from both MARC and MAFCA members and a BUNCH of folks here on the Fordbarn have been enormously helpful. I chose to apply to MARC because more of my closer associates were MARC members and the meetings were much closer to home, but I have many friends in MAFCA as well and know that both clubs are working hard for club growth and member benefits.

What has been a little surprising to me is the fact that after being in the meetings and reviewing many facts and documents and arriving at a decision among those folks that showed up and contributed to the meetings, is the degree to which non-participants and non-contributors have an 'opinion' of their own on the matter.

The folks that are involved in the National and Regional clubs are for the most part hard working 'givers' with a strong intent to help others. There have been many good ideas floated around here, and I would encourage those of you with confidence in your opinions to step forward and run for a national or regional office. It will give you a much wider horizon from which to choose your sunrise.

The people that are responsible for making these decisions can only discuss it and vote for with those that took the initiative to show up.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by rockhillwill

just a discussion between non-participants solves doesn't solve didely-squat. You guys that know me have heard me say often that the best way to tell if some one is a 'giver' or a 'taker' is: The 'taker' says "this is what i don't like, and i want you to do something about it", while the 'giver' says" this looks like it might be an issue and here is what we can do to address it".

I submitted an application to join the marc bod as a way to give back to all the folks that have helped me achieve my goals regarding the model a. I have had abundant help from both marc and mafca members and a bunch of folks here on the fordbarn have been enormously helpful. I chose to apply to marc because more of my closer associates were marc members and the meetings were much closer to home, but i have many friends in mafca as well and know that both clubs are working hard for club growth and member benefits.

What has been a little surprising to me is the fact that after being in the meetings and reviewing many facts and documents and arriving at a decision among those folks that showed up and contributed to the meetings, is the degree to which non-participants and non-contributors have an 'opinion' of their own on the matter.

The folks that are involved in the national and regional clubs are for the most part hard working 'givers' with a strong intent to help others. There have been many good ideas floated around here, and i would encourage those of you with confidence in your opinions to step forward and run for a national or regional office. It will give you a much wider horizon from which to choose your sunrise.

The people that are responsible for making these decisions can only discuss it and vote for with those that took the initiative to show up.

hear hear!!!

[RockHillWill]

Just to be clear, my references to 'givers' and 'takers' is not aimed specifically at this forum, but I was mainly referring to the wide range of input that I get and am amazed/amused at the range of responses that spring forth.

As in my restoration projects, I monitor this forum often and will admit to using some form of many good ideas brought forth here on Fordbarn. I have been blessed to receive many behind the scene discussions that are brought forth by several great contributors. I also read all the posts offering advice as the folks that are not members of a national club offer a perspective that I don't encounter at these events. I have been able to incorporate many of the good ideas found on this site, but I also give some to the parakeet.

[tbirdtbird]

I think the original direction of this post (re-read post #1) is slowly dissolving away.

[ctvpa]

I don't think this dissolving the meaning of the post, I have learned a lot. But my merger question, I have found, is a question asked by many.
Does anyone know, or have access to what the national offices operating costs are? What do the paid employees make?
I would be interested.
I have emailed both national headquarters for a copy of the club's annual report. But does anyone have any inside information?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by ctvpa

But my merger question, I have found, is a question asked by many.

Yes, that is probably true just like many US citizens cannot understand why we have Republicans and Democrats. The comment is often made that those two parties just need to merge. Sounds logical to the unversed.

Originally Posted by ctvpa

Does anyone know, or have access to what the national offices operating costs are? What do the paid employees make? I would be interested.
I have emailed both national headquarters for a copy of the club's annual report. But does anyone have any inside information?

For about 4 years I was the Treasurer for the Model T Ford Club Int'l, and I often would furnish a Financial Statement to members who had questions or concerns. Therefore any member of the particular club should have access to the club's Annual Financial Statement from that club's Treasurer.




The one thing as a businessman that I have never understood when suggestions like come up is exactly what do you feel you are going to gain by a merger? From my experiences, the 3 biggest costs associated with a club's operation is magazine's Printing, Postage, and Publishing (Editor expenses). The two clubs publish a total of 12 magazines annually. If you have a merging of both clubs, the costs to produce the magazine basically stay the same since you are still producing a total of 12 magazines.

As far as administration costs, how much do you feel you are saving there? When you break it down 'as-is', both clubs are likely running "lean" anyway. When you factor in that you have some dual-memberships, if you have a merge, you will have less employee burden however you are also losing revenues from less overall members (single club vs. dual club members) and as such, you have less people to amortize those costs over. Therefore you have gained nothing financially there either.

I would however, like for someone to actually explain how they feel there would be a benefit financially. Realistically, a merge does nothing financially for a member as far as saving them money. One needs to remember these entities are non-profit and as such do not pay property taxes on assets and they cannot profit off of their members. That means the revenues generated off of dues and club sales are appropriated to the overhead costs of operating the club and not for any type of profit.

.

[denis4x4]

Having some experience in the publishing business, I have to say that there would be a considerable savings by putting out 12 issues from a single source rather than six issues from two sources.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by denis4x4

Having some experience in the publishing business, I have to say that there would be a considerable savings by putting out 12 issues from a single source rather than six issues from two sources.

Do you really think that exactly the same thing coming from a single source would cost less? Playing with simple estimates (not knowing the actual membership counts) it would play out like this. Right now the printer maybe does 14,000 copies for one club on even numbered months and on odd numbered months does 11,000 different copies for the other. Now combine those and you end up with maybe 19,000 -20,000 copies every month. Where would the huge savings come from? Of course it would require increasing dues to the current total of both clubs combined to pay for the extra circulation x12 instead of 6. Doesn't it start to get interesting when you begin looking at the details and logistics?

I agree with Brent as I see NO advantage to this dream so many seem to share. I see no advantage to the hobby and certainly not to me! I'm one of those odd people that appreciates options and certainly takes advantage of having those options.

Maybe next Winter when everyone has been cooped up we can talk about merging Pepsi and Coca Cola!

[nhusa]

Originally Posted by nhusa

As a non-club member with a newly re-acquired Model A, I find this discussion very interesting.
I have met numerous people with T’s and A’s that do not belong to a club because they see no benefit or feel as though they don’t fit in.

It sounds like belonging to a local club is a bit like belonging to a church.
Sometimes you find a local church that is friendly and sometimes you find one that is not.
Sometimes you find people that think the way you do and sometimes you do not.
Sometimes they will let be part of the group and sometimes the clique excludes people.
Sometimes they encourage you and sometimes they do not.

I did join the local Model T club (not national) shortly after I got the T and go to meetings when I can - but since am not into touring 50 to 100 miles I do not fit into the focus of the group and am a bit of an outsider. I get enjoyment out of taking the T to a local car show a couple times a year and talking with kids – young and old. I also like taking my grand daughters and friends on trips to get ice cream and apples etc. .

For the new guy like me the “open door policy” on forums like the Ford Barn and the Model T Club of America are a great help. Their encouragement, knowledge, guidance, and humor make it possible to not panic when there is a problem. For me with a stuck A motor – I can’t say enough about the info and visit from a FB forum member. Without it I would probably have sold the Model A and missed out on a fabulous experience.

OK here goes -- I quoted myself because I wanted to remind everyone where I am coming from.

First I have a right to my opinion even if I do not currently belong to an A club - I live in NH and no-one is going to tell me that I don't have that right. in fact club officers should listen and learn from outsiders to learn what they think and possibly make the club better

Second I don't care about the politics or egos I care about learning about my A, having fun, meeting people, and my family.

I purchased the Judging standards book because I was told that it was an essential resource for an A owner. I almost didn't purchase it because of the name. I don't want to have my A judged - all I want to know what is correct for it and how to fix things - and have fun.

I appreciate the super correct model A trailer queens but to use the words of a guy at a car show that was looking at my scruffy T "this is the only real car here - the others are just ego sleds" It made me very happy because it was my Dad's T and I was a bit embarrassed by it when I was in Jr high because it was not a brass show winner. By the way it received 3rd place in class out of about 25 cars at that show - but the fun was talking with people and enjoying the day.

So to put it straight I don't care about MTFCA, MARC, or MAFFI except for the information they provide, the people I meet, the fun & enjoyment, and the opportunities they give me to spend time with my family. Thus it will depend upon the chemistry in the local club.

You can call me selfish if you want but I intend to speak my mind and "Live Free or Die"
After all my mom and dad brought me up to be a true independent Yankee and no-one will tell me what to think - including the press


Will - FYI I usually spend my Friday nights in the tower at a NASCAR short track We are not the 200 mph guys but in my opinion the weekly shows are where the "real racing happens". We host a few special shows each year that include big Super Modified Show, a few touring Modified groups, and the midgets. And Ritchie Evans was a personal friend when I was in NY

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by nhusa

First I have a right to my opinion even if I do not currently belong to an A club - I live in NH and no-one is going to tell me that I don't have that right. in fact club officers should listen and learn from outsiders to learn what they think and possibly make the club better

Second I don't care about the politics or egos I care about learning about my A, having fun, meeting people, and my family.

Many you sure can tell someone who is from New Hampshire but you sure can't tell him nothin'!!

[Wallace]

Newshirt got it all right...I belong to both...but I check Forrdbarn every morning, and rarely think about the national clubs...A long term decline is in the offing for both clubs.

[RockHillWill]

From nhusa: "I appreciate the super correct model A trailer queens but to use the words of a guy at a car show that was looking at my scruffy T "this is the only real car here - the others are just ego sleds" .

My take on the 'trailer queen'/'ego sled' issue differs from 'the guy at the car show'. During my 24 years in Cup racing I built more than 80 complete Winston Cup cars and a multitude of various other sanctioned style cars including the prototype independent front suspension first revealed in the Modifieds by Ritchie Evans. I recently saw this car when I visited Ray Evernham's shop to look at his LSR car, I digress. The more enjoyable projects for me were the rebuilds, the show cars and the 'tribute' cars. Among the ones that I am more proud of was the car that Bill Elliot won the Winston million dollar bonus at Darlington. It currently resides in the Henry Ford museum in Dearborn at Greenfield Village. Quite a bit earlier I restored a 1972-73 Dodge for Richard Petty that was sent to the Smithsonian Institute in Washington, DC, and several years ago at the onset of my first Fine Point project, I met a gentleman at Hershey who was shopping at my site. He worked at the Smithsonian and had seen the Petty car and when he learned I was restoring a Model A he mentioned that he had seen some of the 'scoring' cars and was knowledgeable of the fact that in Fords history, there was more technical information available for the Model A that for any other time frame and for any of the automobile brands.

As he was leaving, he turned to me and encouraged me to do the Model A restoration, as it was his opinion that the cars scoring in the upper portion of Fine Point judging would result in a car that would be 'an American icon, bordering on a National Treasure'. My perspective from that day to this day has been that it is much more than owning a 'trailer queen' and more about preserving history, and that those folks who have diligently spent their time and money researching and restoring to the highest levels own more than a 'trailer queen', but are preserving American artifacts that represent the history of the one man who's company provided the single greatest contribution to the Industrial Revolution in the greatest country in the free world.

It is always easier to pontificate from the prone position as opposed to standing upright facing the wind.

As always, this is just my perspective.

[modelAsteve]

The Judging Standards are only a guide as to what the club wants. It has little to do with what came down the assembly line and very little to do with how much fun you will have driving your reliable Model A down the road. Just my opinion!

[Fred]

Originally Posted by modelAsteve

The Judging Standards are only a guide as to what the club wants. It has little to do with what came down the assembly line and very little to do with how much fun you will have driving your reliable Model A down the road. Just my opinion!

Really !! Please tell us more !!..