Title troubles in Florida

[Hoop]

"Problem 2 is that the OP has already been denied by the DMV with his Bill of Sale-right or wrong-now he has to scramble."

There is no "Problem 2." If you don't have the correct paperwork, you turn around and walk out the door, get the right documents, and try again.

I don't understand the speculation.

You posted earlier, "Sorry you are having a problem but only fellow Floridians can help ... "

Don't you live in PA?

(Edit: Of course we haven't heard from the original poster lately ... maybe the roadster's gone.)

[Franchise_24]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

Just a good example of the kind of person that you would never want to have to deal with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL yeah, power trip or something...

[Mike V. Florida]

As a member of a local club this question hits home. I can see where the information would come in handy in the future.

With that, I emailed the DMV and received a canned response that had nothing to do with a car without a title.

I then called the DMV at their customer service line and spoke with a Lucy there. She looked in her book of procedures and checked with a supervisor as well. (it took 15 minutes not including on hold time).

She mentioned nothing about a judge but did say one needs;

The Bill of sale,
A letter from the state that tells of the Title not used on cars of a certian age.
A past or present registration

Without these things the car cannot be titled in the state.

May I suggest that you contact other car clubs in your area and see if they have any additional information/work arounds that might help. What I mean about work arounds as an example, it might be easier to have a family member title the car in their state and sell it back to you.

In my 9 years in the hobby I have not come across this problem from anyone here in Florida so I'm learning as well.

[RonC]

Unfortunately Mike, I believe all but a couple of states don’t allow registration of vehicles that don’t have either a title and or a previous registration. This is where I think the hobby dropped the ball as many antique autos without one of those documents are prevented from being registered and ultimately become parts vehicles. Certainly detrimental to the hobby.

[Hoop]

"The Bill of sale,
A letter from the state that tells of the Title not used on cars of a certian age.
A past or present registration"


Mike, this, of course, is correct. The letter mentioned has never been an issue in all my cross-border purchases since the state "tag offices" I've dealt with are accustomed to Alabama and Georgia transactions. The two states have very similar title rules for old cars ... Georgia being slightly more strict.

The ease of getting a title following a purchase in these two states is beginning to get more and more restrictive due to the exploitation of so-called "title companies." The paperwork (they do not supply titles) to apply for titles in the purchaser's home state frequently is initiated in Alabama.

This window will eventually close due to the fraud involved. Some states now will not accept the "title company's" paperwork.

On a related note, anyone sitting on an old title (or planning on buying one) needs to be aware that as states, like Florida, go digital, old titles that are for cars that are not registered/tagged may be purged from the system. Florida is not converting ALL the old paper files to digital. It's too expensive.

I would suggest anyone in Florida with a title without a car, or an old car with a title, to consider registering it with a Horseless Carriage tag. This keeps the title and/or car in the system. Cheap insurance.

(If anything, the comments in this thread indicate that, as a hobby, we may not be staying on top of the laws for our individual states. It's important that we not confuse each other with guesstimates of the rules.)

[Charlie Stephens]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Franchise_24

Charlie, that statement makes no sense. I have a 28 leatherback from Michigan, and Michigan VINed the car in 1971. So yes, my A has a legit VIN tag on it, and no you wouldn't be impounding it.

You are absolutely correct. I should have added "...from the factory". I assumed most people knew what I meant. My '31 also has a VIN assigned by the State of California.

Charlie Stephens

[5window]

Originally Posted by Hoop

"Problem 2 is that the OP has already been denied by the DMV with his Bill of Sale-right or wrong-now he has to scramble."

There is no "Problem 2." If you don't have the correct paperwork, you turn around and walk out the door, get the right documents, and try again.
True, unless it went far enough into the process that now there is a record of it not having a title. Unlikely, but maybe possible.


I don't understand the speculation. I know

You posted earlier, "Sorry you are having a problem but only fellow Floridians can help ... "

Don't you live in PA?

No actually I am in the Witness Protection Program, don't actually own a Model A, or live in PA. It's just a shadow log-in that allows me some communication from the Fortress of Solitude.

(Edit: Of course we haven't heard from the original poster lately ... maybe the roadster's gone.)

Just fooling. Only tried to help out by pointing out issues.

[MB30Roadster]

Thanks for all the great responses. For Mike V and Hoop; responses have been especially helpfull for Florida requirements. I sent a description of my situation to the DMV and recieved the following information. Some my have a better understanding but, it is clear as mud to me right now. Doesn't seem to match the requirements as written on their web page. Sorry for the length.

"CUSTOMER SERVICE RESPONSE: Thank you for your recent inquiry. Whenever, the applicant for a Florida title does not have sufficient proof of ownership for the department to issue a certificate of title in the applicant’s name. Verification of title and lien status issued by the state where the motor Vehicle, vessel or mobile home was last registered. Verification may be one of the following: A computer generated printout from the OOS DMV. A letter on letterhead from the OOS DMV. A copy of the dated teletype printout or a statement which shows the ownership information and the name of the law enforcement agency and the official's name that provided the verification information. Photocopy of the OOS title. Bill of sale from the registered owner to the applicant. The bill of sale must include the sale price, date of sale and description of the motor vehicle, including the year, make and vehicle identification number The Bill of sale must be marked paid in full or the applicant can provide other proof that any balance due has been paid. Lien satisfaction. Form HSMV 82040 or82041 accurately completed by the applicant. Florida sales or specify the sale tax information on accurately completed HSMV 82040 or 82041. Title fees. Florida court order directing the department to issue a certificate of title to the person named in the court order for the described motor vehicle. Other proofs of purchase which shows a total sale price and indicates the sale price for the motor vehicle, vessel or mobile home has been paid in full by the applicant. We hope this information will assist you."

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by MB30Roadster

Thanks for all the great responses. For Mike V and Hoop; responses have been especially helpfull for Florida requirements. I sent a description of my situation to the DMV and recieved the following information. Some my have a better understanding but, it is clear as mud to me right now. Doesn't seem to match the requirements as written on their web page. Sorry for the length.

"CUSTOMER SERVICE RESPONSE: Thank you for your recent inquiry. Whenever, the applicant for a Florida title does not have sufficient proof of ownership for the department to issue a certificate of title in the applicant’s name. Verification of title and lien status issued by the state where the motor Vehicle, vessel or mobile home was last registered. Verification may be one of the following: A computer generated printout from the OOS DMV. A letter on letterhead from the OOS DMV. A copy of the dated teletype printout or a statement which shows the ownership information and the name of the law enforcement agency and the official's name that provided the verification information. Photocopy of the OOS title. Bill of sale from the registered owner to the applicant. The bill of sale must include the sale price, date of sale and description of the motor vehicle, including the year, make and vehicle identification number The Bill of sale must be marked paid in full or the applicant can provide other proof that any balance due has been paid. Lien satisfaction. Form HSMV 82040 or82041 accurately completed by the applicant. Florida sales or specify the sale tax information on accurately completed HSMV 82040 or 82041. Title fees. Florida court order directing the department to issue a certificate of title to the person named in the court order for the described motor vehicle. Other proofs of purchase which shows a total sale price and indicates the sale price for the motor vehicle, vessel or mobile home has been paid in full by the applicant. We hope this information will assist you."

I too received the exact same response. Please note the email and word "teletype" Really, teletype?

[WRA]

Folks, I know this is an old thread but I'll relate my recent experience. My car was a body and frame and last registered late 1954. Had sat for 30 years or so and I purchased with Bill of Sale and copy of previous 1954 New York registration.

This was not enough for 5 different Florida DMV's. Called the Tax Collector here. They just couldn't comprehend "No Title". One young clerk went out of her way to help me out but her supervisor wouldn't budge. He told me that an old car without a title is considered a "Kit Car" and would need a letter from manufacture as to date and Vin manufacture. Car & Vin were verified multiple times by FHP, Local Sherrif and Several DMV employees. They just wouldn't budge. I tried at least a dozen times over a 3 year period.

In the end I had to hire a title company to cut thru the red tape. They took all my paperwork, had another deputy verify the VIN and processed it for me. Took about 3 weeks but in the end I have a clear Florida Title.

They were strict and wanted all original documents, insurance and Vin Verification by a law enforcement officer. They wanted contact info for the seller to verify sale. Not sure if they contacted him, but just part of their checks and balances. I should have done this years ago, best $250 I ever spent.

[Hoop]

There is something else going on here.

New York does not issue certificates of title to 1954 vehicles. If you read Florida's requirements, a correct Bill of Sale with accompanying correct registration is what is required. NY's registration becomes the transfer document when a vehicle is sold.

How can Florida require a title when the state from which the vehicle is coming does not issue titles?

They don't.

Section 319.23(3)(a)(2)(c), Florida Statutes, reads: “If the vehicle is an ancient or antique vehicle as defined in s. 320.086, F.S., the application shall be accompanied by a certificate of title; a bill of sale and a registration; or a bill of sale and an affidavit by the owner defending the title from all claims. The bill of sale must contain a complete vehicle description to include the vehicle identification or engine number, year make, color, selling price, and signatures of the seller and purchaser.”

From NY DMV:

New York State does not issue a title certificate for any motor vehicle of model year 1972 or older, travel or utility trailer that weighs less than 1,000 pounds, or limited used motorcycle (including a moped).


What's The Difference Between A Title And A Registration?

For most owners, a title certificate proves ownership of a car, truck, motorcycle, motorboat, or manufactured home. The title is used to transfer it to another owner.

A registration allows a driver to operate a motor vehicle on a public road, or a motorboat on a public waterway. Manufactured homes are not registered.

A transferable registration is issued for a 1972 or older motor vehicle, or a 1986 or older motorboat. The transferable portion proves ownership, and is used to sell or give ownership to another person. The registration portion allows the vehicle to be operated on a public road, or a motorboat on a public waterway.

[5window]

Wow. I am sure there are many great reasons to live in Florida I did myself for a while in the 70's). It would appear that getting a title for an older out of state car is not onmeo fo them. Glad it worked out for you, WRA.

[Skibb]

[QUOTE=Mike V. Florida;419712]Find another office and bring the form. Note that;

"THIS SECTION REQUIRES A PHYSICAL INSPECTION AND A VERIFICATION OF THE VEHICLE IDENTIFICATION NUMBER (VIN)

(OR THE MOTOR NUMBER FOR MOTOR VEHICLES MANUFACTURED
PRIOR TO 1955) OF THE MOTOR VEHICLE DESCRIBED ON THIS FORM BY A LICENSED DEALER, FLORIDA NOTARY PUBLIC, POLICE OFFICER, OR FLORIDA DIVISION OF MOTOR VEHICLES

EMPLOYEE OR TAX COLLECTOR EMPLOYEE"

Once that is done get a horseless carrage plate, pay once and it's good for as long as you own the car.[/QUOTE

MB for Florida get the form Mike mentions. You can download it from the FL DMV Site. Get a "mobile notary" to come out (or a police officer) to sight and sign for the motor no. Then call Tallahassee and speak to their customer svc ppl for the specific desk & address, send the form and $$$ fees for the plate Mike described. I've done it twice recently. DO NOT use your local DMV office. The local DMV's do not issue the red forever plate.

[Hoop]

"[QUOTE=Mike V. Florida;419712]Find another office and bring the form. Note that;
"THIS SECTION REQUIRES A PHYSICAL INSPECTION AND A VERIFICATION OF THE VEHICLE IDENTIFICATION NUMBER (VIN)
(OR THE MOTOR NUMBER FOR MOTOR VEHICLES MANUFACTURED
PRIOR TO 1955) OF THE MOTOR VEHICLE DESCRIBED ON THIS FORM BY A LICENSED DEALER, FLORIDA NOTARY PUBLIC, POLICE OFFICER, OR FLORIDA DIVISION OF MOTOR VEHICLES

EMPLOYEE OR TAX COLLECTOR EMPLOYEE"

Once that is done get a horseless carrage plate, pay once and it's good for as long as you own the car.[/QUOTE

MB for Florida get the form Mike mentions. You can download it from the FL DMV Site. Get a "mobile notary" to come out (or a police officer) to sight and sign for the motor no. Then call Tallahassee and speak to their customer svc ppl for the specific desk & address, send the form and $$$ fees for the plate Mike described. I've done it twice recently. DO NOT use your local DMV office. The local DMV's do not issue the red forever plate."

It appears that you are confusing application for title with application for a Horseless Carriage Tag.

Below is the link for the HC tag. If the vehicle is already titled in FL, no vehicle inspection is required.

Florida ... (and many other states) ... has the Procedures Manual that the title clerks work from and the State Statutes available online. The title clerks are not always familiar with antique vehicles ... they are often wrong.

Why guess about this stuff and post confusing information. Simply post the link or a copy of the procedure. Certainly no need to call Tallahassee ...

http://www.flhsmv.gov/dmv/forms/BTR/83045.pdf

[JonC]

I hope this helps but in NY you can get a registration for an old vehical by taking a pencil tracing of the serial numbers and bringing to a motor vehicle office, after they approve the transfer the will give you forms to fill out if the numbers are not listed as stolen (in NY) you will be issued a non tranferable registration, in 90 days you will receive a transferable registration. Perhaps Flordia will allow the same thing if a title is lost or non existant. In any case a car should have either a title or transferable registration in order to be sold, unless it is a basket case then in NY you do the above.

[burner31]

Same thing in Oklahoma, got my car in Texas, been sitting in a garage since 1958.
Cost me $160, and seven weeks of to get the paperwork.

[Hoop]

Perhaps Florida will allow the same thing ... ?

Here is the link to Florida's Motor Vehicle Procedures Manual. You are going to have a rough time if you show up in FL and tell them, "This is how we do it in New York."

It's an old joke in the South ... they have a ready answer.

http://www3.flhsmv.gov/dmv/Proc/

[JonC]

Originally Posted by Hoop

Perhaps Florida will allow the same thing ... ?

Here is the link to Florida's Motor Vehicle Procedures Manual. You are going to have a rough time if you show up in FL and tell them, "This is how we do it in New York."

It's an old joke in the South ... they have a ready answer.

http://www3.flhsmv.gov/dmv/Proc/

Please it's been a 150 years since the Yanks showed the south how it's done you think you would have learned by now.