The Ford Barn

Tom Wesenberg · 08-13-2021, 07:33 AM

To start the spark lever should be all the way UP, not down, and the throttle lever should only be down a couple clicks.

It's easy to remove the side cover to see if all the valves are working, but a compression check is easier and should tell if they are all working.

Rob Doe · 08-13-2021, 09:20 AM

Danny, a couple thoughts:

The distributor rotor should be aimed at the right front headlight or close when the timing pin is in the dimple; it would aim at the light on a car, but the truck might be a little different.

The distributor rotor turns counter clockwise when the engine is running.

The distributor fires all 4 cylinders in one complete revolution and turns at 1/2 the speed of the crankshaft, so 2 revolutions of the crankshaft fire all 4 cylinders, one every 180 degrees.

You said that you checked for all the way up on the #1 piston. The piston will be all the way up twice in one firing cycle. You want the Top Dead Center, (TDC) that has compression. Put your thumb over the hole as previously mentioned by another forum member. I assume you used a small light and looked through the spark plug hole. On my car it is possible to see a small moon shaped slice of the top of the piston with a light, timing pin in the dimple.

I tell you these things because as a teenager I got my car out of time by incorrectly choosing the wrong contact pin in the distributor body. Many people have confused the Model A Owners Manual description and timed the engine 180 degrees out. The manual used the term ~ "opposite number one contact". The #1 pin in the distributor upper body is on the lower right if you are on the right side of the car with your head above the distributor.

Danny Boy · 08-13-2021, 10:42 AM

We pushed the car in 3rd to get the timing pin set.
I saw distributor go counter clockwise, thanks for that Rob. Wrong edge was set as timing.
So now on passenger side of car looking at distributor my brass tab edge is perfectly inline with the #1 piston pin and points are closing right at that moment.

Thanks for that.
I'm putting a fresh battery in and giving it a try again.

nkaminar · 08-13-2021, 11:15 AM

How to time the engine.

The distributor turns counter clockwise. The points should just start to OPEN when the timing is correct. Before starting make sure the points are set at 0.020 gap when the cam is at the maximum opening of the points.

Do this with the ignition off.

Unscrew the timing pin and turn it around so that the point is in the hole. Turn the engine over until the pin pops into the detent in the timing gear. If you miss and over turn the engine you can turn it back.

Remove the distributor rotor and housing and loosen the screw that holds the points cam from turning. Turn the cam so that the brass arm on the rotor is pointing to number one cylinder. If you need to, re install the rotor and housing to determine if the brass arm is pointed to the right plug, and then re remove them again.

Fully retard the spark lever (all the way up).

Rotate the cam slightly clockwise so that the points are closed. Rotate the cam counter clockwise so that the points are just opening. Tighten the screw.

Rotate the cam clockwise with your fingers until it stops and the points should be closed. A slight movement counter clockwise should just start to open the points. (An ohm meter can help but I usually just use my eyeball and feel with my fingers.) If the slight counter clockwise movement does not start to open the points, make a minor adjustment in the cam and try again. Usually you will have to turn the cam a little more counter clockwise.

Tighten the screw and put everything back together. Make sure the high tension wire from the coil is fully inserted in the coil and distributor cap.

Make sure you put the timing pin back properly.

Bob C · 08-13-2021, 11:19 AM

Check out this link to Marco's timing instructions.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140902...hop/timing.htm

"Pictures need to be hosted on a dire rent website to post them I see, I'll do that and post pictures of my timing, any image hosting website you guys recommend?"
You can post pictures from your computer, no need to use a hosting site.

"

Danny Boy · 08-13-2021, 01:52 PM

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I found the local model A club in Ottawa.
Ok I timed it right this time, did it while on the phone with club organizer.
He sent some stuff about timing and I'm looking at what you guys are saying and my timing was off.
It's good now
Thanks for that guys.

Now if I try to start it the right way I get nothing and the carburetor is spraying fuel in perfect rhythm with the engine crank.
Except it's spraying out the hole on the bottom of the carburetor, if I remove the air filter it sprays out of the opening of the choke plate.
It looks like the spray I should get from the carburetor but it's going the wrong way.

If I give her a little more throttle or some choke when I'm trying to start it I get a backfire in the carburator
I can see the smoke from the backfire come out the carbs vent hole or through the hole at the bottom.
Wow is that ever scary when it backfires in the carburator so I'm a little reluctant of cranking for a long time.

Rob Doe · 08-13-2021, 02:52 PM

Danny, I did a 'Search this Forum' request for "Distributor rotor". About the 5th thread down a thread called "Distributor rotor" has two pictures of what you should see if your timed correctly. One is by LEM the thread creator, and the other is by Tom Wesenberg down in the thread. Both are correct.

Bob C · 08-13-2021, 03:02 PM

As mentioned before sounds like you have an intake valve sticking open.

Rob Doe · 08-13-2021, 03:31 PM

Time to do a compression test with a gauge. The screw threads on the A's plugs are 7/8-18. My automotive compression tester measures 14MM and 18MM only. I had to order an adapter that screws into the plug hole from Snyder's or Bratton's to use it. There is a kind of tester with a conical shaped rubber end that just pushes into the plug hole. My friend brought me one after I had already gone the other direction.

As stated by Bob C above, I don't see how air could push/force fuel from the intake of the carb unless at least one intake valve is hung open.

There is an old timers trick I have read, posted by a senior member on another forum. Years ago they poured a cup of kerosene into each cylinder and left it for a couple days. Seems that kerosene is good at freeing sticky valves. I'll see if I can find that.

Tom, above suggested removing the valve cover just under the manifolds and watching the valves as you use the starter. Plugs out. Fuel off. etc.

As to pushing the car in 3rd gear to set the timing pin accurately, I have found that I can do it alone by pushing or pulling on the right front tire.

jg61hawk · 08-13-2021, 04:02 PM

Can you tow it around the block a few times in gear...leave the gas / key off don't even try to start it....let the valves work for awhile. You could remove the side valve cover and mist Mystery Oil in there too... try the easy stuff before you decide to start pulling the head and things. Blowing back out the rear of the carb is pretty much a stuck open valve or I guess a head gasket could do that???

nkaminar · 08-13-2021, 04:52 PM

If the carburetor is spraying gasoline with every stroke of the engine then there is too much gasoline. Don't turn the gas on at the bottom of the tank and only choke for 1/2 revolution. Leave the air cleaner off. Backfiring at the carburetor is another sign that the engine is flooded. Or, as others have indicated, if you have a leaky intake valve that can cause a backfire in the carburetor. Or, as others have indicted, if the spark is on the wrong plug that can cause a backfire.

jg61hawk · 08-15-2021, 04:49 PM

So did anything work?

Bob C · 08-20-2021, 09:57 AM

When the timing pin drops in at TDC the points should just be opening not closing.
If I understand correctly that would be #1 intake valve staying open.

katy · 08-20-2021, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob C

When the timing pin drops in at TDC the points should just be opening not closing.
If I understand correctly that would be #1 intake valve staying open.

Ditto

W/the pin in the dimple the points should JUST be starting to open.

The valves are, from front to rear E,I, I,E, E,I, I,E.

Danny Boy · 08-20-2021, 02:47 PM

So as pictured (distributor rotor right hand edge on the #1 piston pin)
The points should be closed and just about to open?
With spark retarder all the way up.

Positive is towards the drivers side, on the right.
Negative is toward the passenger, on the left.

katy · 08-21-2021, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny Boy

The points should be closed and just about to open?

You got it.

jg61hawk · 08-20-2021, 12:10 PM

Is the +positive side of that coil on the passenger side of the car...Very hard to see but it looks like it is not.

jg61hawk · 08-20-2021, 03:52 PM

Positive is towards the drivers side, on the right.
Negative is toward the passenger, on the left.

That coil is the opposite of Model A coils as the +Positive terminal on the Model A coil mounted wire down is on the passenger side. I have no idea how this may be affecting you but it could be a significant problem...Unless of course whoever wired it was aware of the switch...I don't mean to imply the coil matters but how it is wired does. Others smarter than me will need to address this...Somewhere on this forum are several good easy wiring diagrams...I searched quick but didn't find one I wanted....

katy · 08-21-2021, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jg61hawk

Positive is towards the drivers side, on the right.
Negative is toward the passenger, on the left.

That coil is the opposite of Model A coils as the +Positive terminal on the Model A coil mounted wire down is on the passenger side. I have no idea how this may be affecting you but it could be a significant problem...Unless of course whoever wired it was aware of the switch...I don't mean to imply the coil matters but how it is wired does. Others smarter than me will need to address this...Somewhere on this forum are several good easy wiring diagrams...I searched quick but didn't find one I wanted....

The coil polarity won't affect whether it starts or not. It may affect how good it runs, but not whether it starts or not.

Rob Doe · 08-21-2021, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katy

The coil polarity won't affect whether it starts or not. It may affect how good it runs, but not whether it starts or not.

x2. General aviation, piston driven aircraft engines ignition systems are driven with magnetos. An aircraft magneto produces AC current to fire the plugs.

08-13-2021, 09:20 AM	#2
Rob Doe Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 618	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help Danny, a couple thoughts: The distributor rotor should be aimed at the right front headlight or close when the timing pin is in the dimple; it would aim at the light on a car, but the truck might be a little different. The distributor rotor turns counter clockwise when the engine is running. The distributor fires all 4 cylinders in one complete revolution and turns at 1/2 the speed of the crankshaft, so 2 revolutions of the crankshaft fire all 4 cylinders, one every 180 degrees. You said that you checked for all the way up on the #1 piston. The piston will be all the way up twice in one firing cycle. You want the Top Dead Center, (TDC) that has compression. Put your thumb over the hole as previously mentioned by another forum member. I assume you used a small light and looked through the spark plug hole. On my car it is possible to see a small moon shaped slice of the top of the piston with a light, timing pin in the dimple. I tell you these things because as a teenager I got my car out of time by incorrectly choosing the wrong contact pin in the distributor body. Many people have confused the Model A Owners Manual description and timed the engine 180 degrees out. The manual used the term ~ "opposite number one contact". The #1 pin in the distributor upper body is on the lower right if you are on the right side of the car with your head above the distributor. __________________ "It ain't what you know for certain that gets ya in trouble. It's what ya know for certain that just ain't so!"

08-13-2021, 10:42 AM	#3
Danny Boy Member Join Date: Aug 2021 Posts: 40	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help We pushed the car in 3rd to get the timing pin set. I saw distributor go counter clockwise, thanks for that Rob. Wrong edge was set as timing. So now on passenger side of car looking at distributor my brass tab edge is perfectly inline with the #1 piston pin and points are closing right at that moment. Thanks for that. I'm putting a fresh battery in and giving it a try again.

08-13-2021, 11:15 AM	#4
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 5,855	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help How to time the engine. The distributor turns counter clockwise. The points should just start to OPEN when the timing is correct. Before starting make sure the points are set at 0.020 gap when the cam is at the maximum opening of the points. Do this with the ignition off. Unscrew the timing pin and turn it around so that the point is in the hole. Turn the engine over until the pin pops into the detent in the timing gear. If you miss and over turn the engine you can turn it back. Remove the distributor rotor and housing and loosen the screw that holds the points cam from turning. Turn the cam so that the brass arm on the rotor is pointing to number one cylinder. If you need to, re install the rotor and housing to determine if the brass arm is pointed to the right plug, and then re remove them again. Fully retard the spark lever (all the way up). Rotate the cam slightly clockwise so that the points are closed. Rotate the cam counter clockwise so that the points are just opening. Tighten the screw. Rotate the cam clockwise with your fingers until it stops and the points should be closed. A slight movement counter clockwise should just start to open the points. (An ohm meter can help but I usually just use my eyeball and feel with my fingers.) If the slight counter clockwise movement does not start to open the points, make a minor adjustment in the cam and try again. Usually you will have to turn the cam a little more counter clockwise. Tighten the screw and put everything back together. Make sure the high tension wire from the coil is fully inserted in the coil and distributor cap. Make sure you put the timing pin back properly. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past. Last edited by nkaminar; 08-13-2021 at 11:26 AM.

08-13-2021, 11:19 AM	#5
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 9,359	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help Check out this link to Marco's timing instructions. https://web.archive.org/web/20140902...hop/timing.htm "Pictures need to be hosted on a dire rent website to post them I see, I'll do that and post pictures of my timing, any image hosting website you guys recommend?" You can post pictures from your computer, no need to use a hosting site. "

08-13-2021, 01:52 PM	#6
Danny Boy Member Join Date: Aug 2021 Posts: 40	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I found the local model A club in Ottawa. Ok I timed it right this time, did it while on the phone with club organizer. He sent some stuff about timing and I'm looking at what you guys are saying and my timing was off. It's good now Thanks for that guys. Now if I try to start it the right way I get nothing and the carburetor is spraying fuel in perfect rhythm with the engine crank. Except it's spraying out the hole on the bottom of the carburetor, if I remove the air filter it sprays out of the opening of the choke plate. It looks like the spray I should get from the carburetor but it's going the wrong way. If I give her a little more throttle or some choke when I'm trying to start it I get a backfire in the carburator I can see the smoke from the backfire come out the carbs vent hole or through the hole at the bottom. Wow is that ever scary when it backfires in the carburator so I'm a little reluctant of cranking for a long time.

08-13-2021, 07:33 AM	#1
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help To start the spark lever should be all the way UP, not down, and the throttle lever should only be down a couple clicks. It's easy to remove the side cover to see if all the valves are working, but a compression check is easier and should tell if they are all working.

08-13-2021, 02:52 PM	#7
Rob Doe Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 618	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help Danny, I did a 'Search this Forum' request for "Distributor rotor". About the 5th thread down a thread called "Distributor rotor" has two pictures of what you should see if your timed correctly. One is by LEM the thread creator, and the other is by Tom Wesenberg down in the thread. Both are correct. __________________ "It ain't what you know for certain that gets ya in trouble. It's what ya know for certain that just ain't so!"

08-13-2021, 03:02 PM	#8
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 9,359	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help As mentioned before sounds like you have an intake valve sticking open.

08-13-2021, 03:31 PM	#9
Rob Doe Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 618	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help Time to do a compression test with a gauge. The screw threads on the A's plugs are 7/8-18. My automotive compression tester measures 14MM and 18MM only. I had to order an adapter that screws into the plug hole from Snyder's or Bratton's to use it. There is a kind of tester with a conical shaped rubber end that just pushes into the plug hole. My friend brought me one after I had already gone the other direction. As stated by Bob C above, I don't see how air could push/force fuel from the intake of the carb unless at least one intake valve is hung open. There is an old timers trick I have read, posted by a senior member on another forum. Years ago they poured a cup of kerosene into each cylinder and left it for a couple days. Seems that kerosene is good at freeing sticky valves. I'll see if I can find that. Tom, above suggested removing the valve cover just under the manifolds and watching the valves as you use the starter. Plugs out. Fuel off. etc. As to pushing the car in 3rd gear to set the timing pin accurately, I have found that I can do it alone by pushing or pulling on the right front tire. __________________ "It ain't what you know for certain that gets ya in trouble. It's what ya know for certain that just ain't so!"

08-13-2021, 04:02 PM	#10
jg61hawk Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Central New Jersey Posts: 428	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help Can you tow it around the block a few times in gear...leave the gas / key off don't even try to start it....let the valves work for awhile. You could remove the side valve cover and mist Mystery Oil in there too... try the easy stuff before you decide to start pulling the head and things. Blowing back out the rear of the carb is pretty much a stuck open valve or I guess a head gasket could do that???

08-13-2021, 04:52 PM	#11
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 5,855	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help If the carburetor is spraying gasoline with every stroke of the engine then there is too much gasoline. Don't turn the gas on at the bottom of the tank and only choke for 1/2 revolution. Leave the air cleaner off. Backfiring at the carburetor is another sign that the engine is flooded. Or, as others have indicated, if you have a leaky intake valve that can cause a backfire in the carburetor. Or, as others have indicted, if the spark is on the wrong plug that can cause a backfire. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past. Last edited by nkaminar; 08-14-2021 at 07:05 AM.

08-15-2021, 04:49 PM	#12
jg61hawk Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Central New Jersey Posts: 428	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help So did anything work? Last edited by jg61hawk; 08-16-2021 at 12:26 AM.

08-20-2021, 09:57 AM	#13
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 9,359	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help When the timing pin drops in at TDC the points should just be opening not closing. If I understand correctly that would be #1 intake valve staying open.

08-20-2021, 02:47 PM	#15
Danny Boy Member Join Date: Aug 2021 Posts: 40	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help So as pictured (distributor rotor right hand edge on the #1 piston pin) The points should be closed and just about to open? With spark retarder all the way up. Positive is towards the drivers side, on the right. Negative is toward the passenger, on the left.

08-20-2021, 12:10 PM	#17
jg61hawk Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Central New Jersey Posts: 428	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help Is the +positive side of that coil on the passenger side of the car...Very hard to see but it looks like it is not.

08-20-2021, 03:52 PM	#18
jg61hawk Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Central New Jersey Posts: 428	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help Positive is towards the drivers side, on the right. Negative is toward the passenger, on the left. That coil is the opposite of Model A coils as the +Positive terminal on the Model A coil mounted wire down is on the passenger side. I have no idea how this may be affecting you but it could be a significant problem...Unless of course whoever wired it was aware of the switch...I don't mean to imply the coil matters but how it is wired does. Others smarter than me will need to address this...Somewhere on this forum are several good easy wiring diagrams...I searched quick but didn't find one I wanted.... Last edited by jg61hawk; 08-20-2021 at 04:15 PM.