Need for thermostats??

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by Heard

OK. I'm confused here. I ain't no expert for sure, but at some point pumping more water is useless. Sure you're moving more water but that also means the water spends less time in the radiator to cool AND less time in the block to pick up more heat. G.M., just exactly where is that point?

Obviously, Henry Ford thought 65 gpm was good enough. I'm sure he could have built pumps that would have delivered more, but he didn't. So what gives???

The longer the water stays in the engine the hotter it gets. The problem is under conditions when the water is not moving very fast the air is not moving very fast from the fan or from forward motion. At some point lets just say 190 degrees and the water moving at 110 gallons through each pump in 5 minutes which is what Skips turbine impellers produce the temperature will stay at that temperature at say 50 MPH, more flow won't produce better cooling at that point. If the outside temperature went lower then the water temperature would drop. G.M.

[blucar]

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

OK J .
of topic but I was wondering if Blue car Bill struck Vapour lock in all the 90.000 miles ,Ted

As we all know, vapor lock is a constant problem with the flat-head Fords. My first four cars were Chevys, '38-42, never had a vapor lock problem with any of them..
When I bought my first Ford V8 in early '52, the first hot summer day, pulling the Mallad Pass heading for Salt Lake City, the '41 Ford vapor locked. When I got to Ogden I put a new fuel pump on the '41.
Shortly after buying the '36 in early September it vapor locked on a grade. When I got back to Idaho Falls I purchased a Auto Pulse electric fuel pump for the '36. I mounted the pump close to the fuel tank, installed a switch under the dash and left the mechanical pump in place.
To date my '36 still has an electric pump mounted near the tank. If I encounter a vapor lock in heavy traffic, etc., I just turn on the electric pump, when the vapor lock clears I turn the pump off.
I think that one of the issues that most people fail to understand about engine cooling is that over 50% of the cooling is achieved via the oil running through the block and thence to the pan where the oil is cooled in the sump.
Good modern oils are designed to stay on hot surfaces, in lieu of burning up and/or away from the hot metal, like the old non-detergent oils will.
A simple test of the quality of the oil you are using is to pore some on a hot plate, you will be surprised at the results.

[FlatheadTed]

I see Bill on the 41 the new pump solved the vapour lock ,just as I expected .

Thermostats If the water stays longer in the engine it will get hotter but longer equals longer in the Radiator also to cool .but if you are not moving more air things will heat up .In my experiments if I idled the motor the temperature will clime but if I put a 15 " fan in front the temp came down .that's with out increase water flow .Ted

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

I see Bill on the 41 the new pump solved the vapour lock ,just as I expected .

Thermostats If the water stays longer in the engine it will get hotter but longer equals longer in the Radiator also to cool .but if you are not moving more air things will heat up .In my experiments if I idled the motor the temperature will clime but if I put a 15 " fan in front the temp came down .that's with out increase water flow .Ted

As I said, three things improve cooling more water in the system, more flow of water or more air through the radiator. I have done most of my testing with the car sitting and a large house type fan AGAINST the center of the grill. This simulates driving and the results aren't effected by hills, wind, traffic and other variables. After I get the cooling results under these conditions then I do road testing and adjustments. I go at the same outside temperature, the same route and at pretty much the same speed. One such test ride is 30 miles each way which takes us to lunch with a 30 to 45 minute stop which allows us to see the rise in temperature from heat soak and how it acts on and after start up. The hand held laser pointed thermometer is used when we get there, when we leave and when we get home. These results were posted on here numerous times. G.M.

[FlatheadTed]

As I proved in post 27 if your Radiator is blocked or under size you can improve cooling by adding high flow pumps or pressurising it to 4 1b Ether one ,but a good cap is required .The reason ! water is forced through otherwise restricted openings ,You can get the same results with a new Radiator and a extra row of tubes .A shroud also will aide specially in parades ,Ted

[41ford1]

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Originally Posted by G.M.

As I said, three things improve cooling more water in the system, more flow of water or more air through the radiator. I have done most of my testing with the car sitting and a large house type fan AGAINST the center of the grill. This simulates driving and the results aren't effected by hills, wind, traffic and other variables. After I get the cooling results under these conditions then I do road testing and adjustments. I go at the same outside temperature, the same route and at pretty much the same speed. One such test ride is 30 miles each way which takes us to lunch with a 30 to 45 minute stop which allows us to see the rise in temperature from heat soak and how it acts on and after start up. The hand held laser pointed thermometer is used when we get there, when we leave and when we get home. These results were posted on here numerous times. G.M.

There are five factors that effect cooling a Ford flathead. The three mentioned above plus ignition timing and fuel mixture. "Late" or "retarded" ignition timing has a large effect. With "late" or "retarded" timing the exhaust gas temperature is hotter. A lean mixture also raises the exhaust temperature. A Ford flathead exhaust passes though the water jacket before exiting the block. More heat in the exhaust equals more heat in the coolant.

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

As I proved in post 27 if your Radiator is blocked or under size you can improve cooling by adding high flow pumps or pressurising it to 4 1b Ether one ,but a good cap is required .The reason ! water is forced through otherwise restricted openings ,You can get the same results with a new Radiator and a extra row of tubes .A shroud also will aide specially in parades ,Ted

The extra pressure in the radiator won't help anything cool at all, but as mentioned before will raise the boiling point of the liquid inside it,

And no...a radiators is more efficient when liquid is flowing, not sitting there.

I think what you experienced was when you use the high flow pumps, you were forcing/over coming the blockage in your radiators...passing more liquid, cooling more efficiently.

I recall Stant, or another Tstat maker, having a detailed write up on their website (with pretty charts and stuff ), pretty much negating the old wives tale of "coolant flowing too fast won't cool".

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

I see Bill on the 41 the new pump solved the vapour lock ,just as I expected .

Thermostats If the water stays longer in the engine it will get hotter but longer equals longer in the Radiator also to cool .but if you are not moving more air things will heat up .In my experiments if I idled the motor the temperature will clime but if I put a 15 " fan in front the temp came down .that's with out increase water flow .Ted

Here's a thread I wrote three years ago listing the things I'd learned on a very hot (101°) trip called "Cool Tips for Hot Trips":
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74987

Here is an excerpt from it illustrating what FlatheadTed said above:

"Tailwind = hot. We started out going north on the freeway. We were cruising along nice, seemed more quiet than usual but my feet were getting hot, looked down at the temp guage and it was pegged past "H" and I wondered, "What the . . . ?"

"Then I looked up at the thermometer above the rear view mirror and it was 101 deg!

"I knew it was a hot day but that was hotter than I expected.

"I wondered why every thing was so hot until I turned to go west and had the wind come in my window at me and the temperature dropped a little. Then I looked at all of the trees along the road and we had been going with the wind that reduced the air going into the radiator enough to cause the engine to get a lot hotter than I expected."

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by 41ford1

There are five factors that effect cooling a Ford flathead. The three mentioned above plus ignition timing and fuel mixture. "Late" or "retarded" ignition timing has a large effect. With "late" or "retarded" timing the exhaust gas temperature is hotter. A lean mixture also raises the exhaust temperature. A Ford flathead exhaust passes though the water jacket before exiting the block. More heat in the exhaust equals more heat in the coolant.

In the hundreds of thousands of miles I have driven 32 to 48 Fords I never had an over heating problem from timing or fuel. In the old days a remanufactured distributor was 2 or $3.00 and a carb was only a few bucks. There a several distributor rebuilders that use the old Ford~Heyer distributor strobe machines. These distributors are set to the original factory specs and very seldom require any adjustment after installation. The vacuum brake is even set. A carb problem is something very noticeable when the engine is running or driving the car. There are a FEW guys that do a good job rebuilding carbs that are once and done, not back and forth shipping of the carb to try and make it work. Uncle Max and Charlie N.Y are two. I would expect the engine to be in good mechanical shape before driving. Cooling is a separate system and the mechanics and workings of the system must be understood to correct any cooling problem. The basic fundamental of cooling is a full non restricted free flow of coolant, some device to keep ALL of the coolant in the system with no loss out the cap or over flow tube, a fairly good radiator and good air movement through the radiator. Make sure the full 18 quarts of coolant fill the radiator up into the filler neck. Start with no stats which are a restrictor and when the cooling problem is solved then try the stats. The air movement is difficult and critical due to fan design, location and directing almost all the air through the radiator. I have corrected all of design problems on my 39 P/U and it will run at a fast idle for over 2 hours with the outside temperature over 100 degrees at 180 degrees. This was demonstrated at the 2004 Early Ford V/8 show in Maryland. It was so hot out not to many people spent much time at the flea market. The engine temperature even came down slightly when the RPMs were increased. Stock clean radiator, shroud, adapted 6 blade industrial fan, 4 lb pressure cap, no stats and Skip high flow turbine water pumps, two gallons of permanent anti freeze and two bottles of Purple Ice. A shroud is hard to adapt to most cars. G.M.

[FlatheadTed]

This is just my exsperance ,what works for you maybe different .As I said in my previous post this core is partially blocked .When the car was running 180 /190 and dumping water then I added the 41b pressure tank the problem went away and stayed under 140 F,I then removed the tank and added high flow pumps only and it also ran the same and stayed under 140 F. both the same out come .The core is blocked but it gave a temporary solution .

Originally Posted by Mike B

The extra pressure in the radiator won't help anything cool at all, but as mentioned before will raise the boiling point of the liquid inside it,

And no...a radiators is more efficient when liquid is flowing, not sitting there.
I posted previously the pressurised system as far as the boiling point goes doesn't come into play until 212 F . In a closed /pressurised system if the tubes are restricted water is kept in that would otherwise be pumped out the over flow , resulting in less water equals affected cooling .the pump pumps into the top tank and forces the water through the core ,its also sucking more vigorously .


I think what you experienced was when you use the high flow pumps, you were forcing/over coming the blockage in your radiators...passing more liquid, cooling more efficiently.

I recall Stant, or another Tstat maker, having a detailed write up on their website (with pretty charts and stuff ), pretty much negating the old wives tale of "coolant flowing too fast won't cool".