Not Charging - what's up?

[Walt Ebie]

Actually, there are 2 red wires - one at each end of the fuse block. The other, you can barely see a hint of red in the picture, is behind the yellow wire at the firewall end of the fuse block. They both go up into the wire cable, up to the terminal box, then inside the firewall, follow over to the driver's side, under the panel that's beside your left knee, back to the corner of the panel where they are spliced into 2 black wires that run up, apparently inside the dash. It appears the only way to see where they eventually end is to pull the instrument panel. I've done that before to replace the fuel float so I can do that if you think it's necessary and try to find where they go.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I'm sure someone cobbled up some wiring there and that's why nothing is adding up and your ammeter doesn't show a charge. We need to see more pictures, like where those extra wires lead to.

[Walt Ebie]

Okay, I'll pull the instrument panel, try to find the wires and get the pics off ASAP.

[Walt Ebie]

So here's a shot of the back of the panel. Near as I can tell the two red wires (that become dark gray) come back to the 2 posts of the ammeter. So I checked voltage and found that with the ignition switch and the toggle (which you can see up at the top of the picture, under the edge of the dash) both off there is no voltage at the switch or either of the ammeter posts. If the switch is on and the toggle is off, still no voltage at any of the 3 posts. But if the switch and the toggle are 'on' then all 3 posts (ignition and ammeter) show 6.3v. Tomorrow I'll check them again when the engine is running. Don't know if this is of any help or not, but I hope it may eliminate some other possibilities.
I couldn't wait....cranked up the car and found 18.9 volts at the switch and at both ammeter posts. But the meter shows nothing - a few v below neutral. As an amateur, I'd guess the meter is bad? Also notice something else - you can't start the car with the toggle off but once the car is running you can turn off the toggle and it will keep running. I have tried to locate the fellow who did the restoration about 1980-83 with no luck. So what do you all think now?

[Tom Wesenberg]

I would remove the extra wires and switch. It looks like they parallel the ammeter, making it not work. Make sure the rest of the wires are set up as Ford originally had it. It will make trouble shooting so much easier.

[Walt Ebie]

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I presume you're talking about the 2 red wires from the fuse block that eventually end on the ammeter? Or the toggle switch?

[Tom Wesenberg]

Yes, remove those and see what happens. Hopefully the rest of the wiring is OK, but check for voltage at both coil posts once the red wires and switch are gone. Then when the ignition is turned on and the points close, one side of the coil should be the same as ground and show no voltage.

[Walt Ebie]

Okay, I'll get after that tomorrow and report the results. Meanwhile, what do you think about the ammeter? With 18v on both sides, I would have thought the meter should register something. As for the short in the high-beams I mentioned a while back, I think I may have an idea of where to start. The previous owner told me, and I found it to be true, that if you happen to slightly bump the light switch, the tail lights would come on without actually be in a switched-on position. So I had to check the tail lights after every drive just to make sure they weren't accidentally 'on.' So i suspect a problem with the light switch. Or maybe not. I'll get back to you tomorrow. Thanks again.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Ammeters rarely fail in the Model A. I'm sure it was someone's added wiring that messed it up.

[Mike V. Florida]

Try using this drawing and draw in the wiring that you have in your car.

[Walt Ebie]

Okay, here's the Tuesday report.....I disconnected the 2 red wires from the fuse block and that, in effect, eliminated the toggle switch. So now, the ignition switch is still connected by the one red wire......and the ammeter is connected, on the charge side, to the yellow/black tracer wire and the instrument panel light. The discharge side of the ammeter is connected to the yellow wire and 1 gray wire. I know the gray wire is not the Ford schematic but I think I know why they did it. According to the Ford plan, there should be a black/blue tracer wire coming the terminal box to power the windshield wiper and dome light. But there isn't any such wire. The only lines coming in thru the terminal box are the red line to the switch and the yellow and the yellow/black tracer to the ammeter. Instead, the gray wire that's hooked to the discharge side of the ammeter powers the wipers and the light - and oddly enough, if you take that wire off the post, the instrument light won't work either. Anyway, with the toggle switch and its' lines to the fuse box eliminated the car still starts and runs fine. But still no charge on the ammeter - with engine running I still get 18.3v at the battery, both ammeter posts and the switch. Your thoughts? By the way, voltage at all these points with the engine off is 6.3V And here's the drawing of the way it is now.

[Mitch//pa]

are you sure your diagram is correct? Y/B should be coming off the cut out not the starter and they are crossed on the terminal box. also your wiper /dome is on the wrong side also.
look at the correct diagram

[Tom Wesenberg]

With the engine at fast idle what is the voltage on the starter swtich and each end of the fuse?

[Walt Ebie]

I'll check the drawing again and the wires. Meanwhile, the voltage at fast idle is still 18.3 at all the checkpoints. And before I ran it today I pushed the 3rd brush all the way up and that didn't change the output from before. I just went out and checked - you're right it is Y/B from the cutout output to the right post on the term box and the Y from starter to the left term post.

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Most likely you only have 4 places to check to find your problem. Since the engine starts and runs fine, you can forget the battery and cables, as well as the ground. And I mean the battery ground. Be sure the generator has a good ground (the mounting bolt), as I've seen rust at the mount and that caused the generator to cook itself.

So with the engine at fast idle check both sides of the cutout for voltage, then check both terminal box wing nuts for voltage. If you have a fuse, then check both sides of the fuse. Actually since the coil is working the fuse must be good if you have a fuse. And depending on where the coil power is taken, the ammeter may have to be good to feed the coil. That pretty much leaves the cutout of the wire leading to the terminal box.

Was this ever checked???

Bob

[Walt Ebie]

Good morning.....here's the early report: I checked all the above, Tom, and here are the results: First, the generator ground looks good with no rust that I can see. Then, with engine OFF: Output side of the cutout, both terminal posts, both sides of the fuse, the starter switch, the ignition switch and both ammeter posts all show @6.3V. The only exception is the generator output shows 0V. Then with the engine ON, running at a good idle: All the same points show @18.3v. Also behind the instrument panel: there is NO black/blue wire from the terminal to power the wipers and dome light. Instead, there is a gray wire from the Ammeter discharge side that apparently does that. Although the instrument light is connected to the AM charge post, if I remove the gray wire from the AM-dischg post neither the instrument light nor the dome light will work. If I put the gray wire on the AM-chg post, again no lights. But as long as the gray wire is on the Am-dischg side, all the lights will work and the instrument light will work on either Ammeter post.

[Patrick L.]

The ground ' looks good' ? But, is it good ? Make sure.
I'm trying to stay out of this.
You have the best help there is with Tom.
No sense in confusing the issue.

[Big hammer]

This is frustrating to me and i'am not working on it! 18.3 volts and the light bulbs aren't burnt out? 6.3 volts engine off= 6volt battery! 18.3 volts engine running? Could it be a 12 volt generator? I haven't seen a 12 volt generator
with a cut out. Maybe picture of generator would help everyone!!

[Walt Ebie]

Here's the picture. By the way, I'm using the voltmeter on a 20v scale and since I get 6v on the battery I presume it's the right setting. And I use the red lead on the meter for the ground.

[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by Big hammer

This is frustrating to me and i'am not working on it! 18.3 volts and the light bulbs aren't burnt out? 6.3 volts engine off= 6volt battery! 18.3 volts engine running? Could it be a 12 volt generator? I haven't seen a 12 volt generator
with a cut out. Maybe picture of generator would help everyone!!

The generator doesn't care much about voltage. A so-called 6v generator can put out 30+ volts if there is an open somewhere.
This car needs all the grounds, connections removed, cleaned and the car wired correctly. Mike posted a wiring diagram.