5W-30 oil...OK to use?

[jkeesey]

Its the 0 mr.tube. its hard to believe there's anything good going to an engine specced at 20 or 30 and then you put in 0. It may be 30 when hot but its 0 cold.

[Purdy Swoft]

Mr Tube, I Just can't grasp why you have such ideas. Such a nice guy too!! Insert smiley face.

[steve s]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

This is from engine builder magazine,

"When "detergent oils" first appeared, everyone’s engine repair business increased. Tired, worn out engines, full of sludge deposits because they had always been serviced with non-detergent oils, were ill advisedly transfused with detergent oil, which promptly attacked the sludge deposits. Engine bearing surfaces were flooded with oil containing a high concentration of newly suspended sludge particles. And during the phase-in of detergent engine oils, a number of chemical elixirs for "engine oil desludging" appeared. With current engines, we often encounter similar failures when engines are accidentally overfilled and loosen normally benign engine deposits. Unless you’re very young or your principal residence is a cave, none of this should be news."

On the other hand, there's this http://www.rockymountainmodelaclub.o...C_Mar_2012.pdf:

Lack of Sludge Removal
The value of detergent additives not present in "Henry’s Oil" is elimination of sludge. Those of us who can remember the 1950’s can remember pulling the oil pan, and seeing the thick layer (sometimes as much as ½ inch) of sludge coating the bottom of the pan. Modern oils have reduced this to a minimum by adding "detergents" , a term coined in the 1950’s to sell the oil. Detergents are not soap, a myth caused by equating the apparent cleaning of the engine to clothes being cleaned by detergent soap. Another myth complains that the modern oils with the "detergent" additive will stir up any residual sludge in the engine and clog oil passages and cause engine damage. In fact, motor oil additives called detergents neutralize acids and clean engines, but are incapable of removal of sludge and varnish. Detergents are more like solvents than wire brushes. Dispersants and Detergents keep products of combustion, and other particulates suspended so that they do not block passages or lodge in cavities. To use an oil which does not have detergent it is necessary to use an oil with the API label SA or SB oil, if you can find it. However, if you use a non detergent oil you must be prepared to change oil more frequently, clean the oil pan monthly 11, and drop the pan and clean the engine at least once a year.

Some old timer Model A owners cling to the myth that "detergent" oil will clog your engine’s oil passages and damage your engine. However, since the "detergent" in fact cannot do this, it is recommended that modern oils with the capability of keeping combustion products suspended combined with frequent oil changes is recommended.

Whom to believe?
Steve

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by steve s

whom to believe?

Exactly!!!

[PetesPonies]

Well having been an auto instructor for 30 years and still in the profession . . . . I have my learning, my experiences and thus my opinions that I have developed and taught over the years.

[donQ]

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I agree with the folks that suggest that if you use a multi vis oil, probably 10-40 is a good way to go. I use a model A doodlebug to plow my driveway in the winter and the vehicle starts much easier with the multi vis. I had some concerns about loosening the 50 or so years of sludge that may have built up before I started using the detergent multi vis. My transition plan was to at first use 1 qt 10-40 and the rest non detergent 30 W. The next oil change it went to 2 qt 10-40. I stayed there for a couple of oil changes and gradually ran all 10-40. This has worked for me for the last 15 years. Donq

[Allanw]

Originally Posted by MrTube

Once again, 0W30 is the same exact weight in a hot engine as 10w30 and 30SAE.

0W30 is like running *closer* to 30SAE when the engine is cold and running 30SAE when its hot where 30SAE is like jello when cold. 0W30 is simply more consistent than 30SAE.

Not sure why no one can quite grasp that.

You are correct, and most people THINK they know the oil rating details! They don't!!!!!

I run 10W-40 - it's hot over here, and it's an oil easily available at a good price, with lots of ZDDP. Nothing Wrong with 0W-30 though.


The 0 in 0W anything doesn't mean you have "thin" oil at all, at any temp.

30 weight behaves like 30 weight oil. Thick as hell when cold, "thin" when hot. When it is cold, it is outside the designed operating parameters of the engine.

0W-30 is very different. the W is NOT for weight, it's for Winter.

0W-30 is like a 0 weight oil would behave at 40 degrees C - it's far thinner than 30 weight WOULD BE AT THE SAME TEMPERATURE, and is like a 30 weight oil would behave at 100C (water boiling).

What this means is 0W-30 actually stays CLOSER to the hot viscosity of 30 weight at temperatures from cold through to hot. So, the oil is CLOSER to the designed operating parameters of the engine. the 30 weight thickens up FAR more as it gets cooler.

Multiweight oils are FAR superior for cooler oil temperature operation, as the viscosity varies less.


(these numbers below aren't actual figures from a specific oil brand or type, but they are close enough for the purposes ofthis illustration. Get you own numbers if you are pedantic )

30 weight may have a viscosity of 20 cSt at 100C. So will 0W-30. That's where the 30 rating come from.

At 0C, 30 weight may have a viscosity of 100 cSt. At the same temp, 0W-30 will have a viscosity of maybe 50 cSt.

So when the oil is cold, straight 30 weight is maybe 5 TIMES the thickness of 30 weight at operating temperature - it's slow to pump up to the valve chamber and slow to run back down.

When the 0W-30 is cold, it's probably under 3 times the thickness of normal operating temp oil, so actually pumps up and runs down faster to your bearings. Viscosity and shear strength is always the same or higher than 30 weight is at operating temperature.

Hopefully this shows there is nothing "thin" about 0W-30

[Allanw]

Originally Posted by jkeesey

Its the 0 mr.tube. its hard to believe there's anything good going to an engine specced at 20 or 30 and then you put in 0. It may be 30 when hot but its 0 cold.

Good example.

It is NOT 0 weight when cold. It's as thick as 0 weight would be at 40C. This is the common misconception. When cold it is STILL thicker than hot 30 weight, so is more suited to something "designed" for 30 weight oil.

It's thinner than COLD 30 weight, so flow faster to where it needs to go.

[ursus]

Allenw make a good point! On a few occasions I have started the A at around 0 degrees Fahrenheit with 30-weight in the crankcase. About 15 seconds after starting there was a soft clatter in the bottom end, so I shut off the engine, checked the oil, and found it at the bottom of the dipstick. I soon discovered that the oil wasn't really low, it was because at that low temperature the 30-weight oil initially pumped upward was so thick it hadn't time to flow back down to the crankcase. The clatter sound was coming from a starved oil pump. Remember that most of the wear occurs on start-up when the engine is cold. There is a reason that multi-weight oils were developed.

[MrTube]

I'm glad to see some agree with me. Anyone who has ever watched an oil PSI peg on startup at 80+PSI idling should understand why 0W30 is beneficial to any and every engine.

Try to pour a quart of 10w30 oil into an engine when the bottle has been outside on a 0F day and tell me you want your engine running on that even for a few minutes. Then try to pour a bottle of 0w30 and you will immediiately understand.

[Allanw]

Originally Posted by MrTube

Anyone who has ever watched an oil PSI peg on startup at 80+PSI idling should understand why 0W30 is beneficial to any and every engine.

Yep, seen that!

People will still have trouble getting this though - It's not because people are dim, it's because it's badly explained and not immediately obvious compared to how it looks:

30 weight goes from:
this thick (cold)<........................................... .......>to this thin(hot)

0W-30 goes from:
..............................this thick (cold)<....................>to this thin(hot)

Notice: 0W-30 does NOT get thicker as it warms up, which is something VERY commonly thought (as this is what the numbers indicate on initial impression).

[Allanw]

Sorry - I edited my posts - the winter temp (the "W") is usually actually measured at 40C under SAE kinematic tests, not 0C. however, the difference actually increases further as the tempurture drops to 0C anyway :-)

[Greg out west]

Dear Tube Man



I think you got the wrong idea what I was referring too about the single weight oil in the A Motor...I use what it call's for in my modern car...


I woundn't use 30 or 40 in "COLD" weather,,,as like one of the guy's said,,,it too thick & won't flow correctly to the Brg's...What I'am talking about is the abilitily for a single weight to carry a higher flim strenght when cold on say a 75 degree day



How much clearance are most guy's running at the center cam Brg ? Mine is right at the limit of .004... The muli-weight will probably bypass the brg with more wear... I agree with what Pete said about use the correct oil for what ever engine...



BTW,,,I don't dump out good oil at 500 mile's like Ford called for 80+ year's ago...Oil's have advanced so much over the year's that getting 2 to 300 K out of a engine is more normal than way back...



I run a oil filter, air filter, PCV & thermostat..All the stuff modern car's use Mine is a B motor so there is alittle pressure,,,



I alway's woundered as a kid,,how a Model T motor could run and it didn't even have a oil pump...I'll be waiting for your answer ??


Take care my young Friend


Greg out West

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by Greg out west

Dear Tube Man



I think you got the wrong idea what I was referring too about the single weight oil in the A Motor...I use what it call's for in my modern car...


I woundn't use 30 or 40 in "COLD" weather,,,as like one of the guy's said,,,it too thick & won't flow correctly to the Brg's...What I'am talking about is the abilitily for a single weight to carry a higher flim strenght when cold on say a 75 degree day



How much clearance are most guy's running at the center cam Brg ? Mine is right at the limit of .004... The muli-weight will probably bypass the brg with more wear... I agree with what Pete said about use the correct oil for what ever engine...



BTW,,,I don't dump out good oil at 500 mile's like Ford called for 80+ year's ago...Oil's have advanced so much over the year's that getting 2 to 300 K out of a engine is more normal than way back...



I run a oil filter, air filter, PCV & thermostat..All the stuff modern car's use Mine is a B motor so there is alittle pressure,,,



I alway's woundered as a kid,,how a Model T motor could run and it didn't even have a oil pump...I'll be waiting for your answer ??


Take care my young Friend


Greg out West

Hi Greg,

I honestly have no idea what the difference between the film strength of 30 single weight and say 0W30 Mobil 1 or Royal Purple. I will admit that.

I'm going to be honest and say my assumption would be to trust the Mobil 1 or Royal Purple more than the single weight lawn mower oil which is essentially the only kind of single weight you can find anymore. That said I even use Mobil 1 in my lawn mower.

Perhaps Allan has an answer?

[Patrick L.]

The concept of multi-weight oil is confusing because some people really don't know about these oils [even though they think they do]or because of the way this concept is explained. I did my college papers [I can't spell thesis] on these oils back in the dark ages.

An easy way to think of it is, 5W-30 , this oil flows like 5 weight in cold weather but has [and retains] film strength of a 30 weight. These oils don't thicken as they warm, its just an easy way for some to explain it.

[Allanw]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

The concept of multi-weight oil is confusing because some people really don't know about these oils [even though they think they do]or because of the way this concept is explained. I did my college papers [I can't spell thesis] on these oils back in the dark ages.

An easy way to think of it is, 5W-30 , this oil flows like 5 weight in cold weather but has [and retains] film strength of a 30 weight. These oils don't thicken as they warm, its just an easy way for some to explain it.

You understand it very well. I can tell. It's the explaining of it that confuses people, and it's 100% understandable.

I'm sure you can see exactly what I'm saying, as you are already there. a VERY VERY VERY large majority of people (that includes mechanics too) don't understand it, even though they think they do. It IS confusing....

[Allanw]

I'm absolutely not picking on "greg out West" here - he was brave enough to answer, but is a perfect example of the common misconception that i bet the majority on this board beleive. I had to have it explained to me, and I get it now, but it isn't an easy thing to grasp, as it's fundementally flawed if you take it at it's logical face value.

Originally Posted by MrTube

Hi Greg,
Perhaps Allan has an answer?

Yeah... I posted it, but it's probably not clear enough - I tend to use too many words .

The concept may still be confusing. read each point carefully, 1 at a time:


1) 30 weight oil at 100C (212F) (operating temperature) has a certain viscosity. lets use 10cSt (a quite typical figure)


2) 0W-30 oil at 100C (212F) has the same viscosity as above (within the SAE limits anyway). that's where the 30 rating come from comes from. again, 10cSt viscosity.


3) 0W-30 does NOT (note NOT) get a 0 weight oil rating when cold! It is THICKER cold, than a 30weight is hot.

4)BOTH these oils get thinner as they get hotter NOT the other way around





Here is the important part:

5)read point 1 and 2 again!> 1) 30 weight oil at 100C (212F) is 10cSt 2) so is 0W-30. The same viscosity.

6)at 40C, they are BOTH thicker than when hot. BOTH types of oil thicken when cooling. The 30 weight thickens more though.

Got that?



Basing film strength on viscosity:

BOTH 30 weight and 0W-30 have a higher film strength when cold than hot. BOTH are thinnest at operating temperature than cold.


SO, the multiviscosity is NOT going to bypass that bearing mentioned above, as it IS NOT EVER THINNER than the 30 weight oil is when the 30 weight is at operating temperature.

The difference:

30 weight is TOO THICK when cold to circulate well.

0W-30 will circulate BETTER when cold, but is NOT thinner than hot 30 weight.

there is NO reduction in film strength, as the film strength is at the lowest point at operating temperature (100C, 212F).

[Allanw]

Ooooh!





In this table:

_______________Hot_________Cold
30 weight_____ 9cSt_________ 85cSt
0 Weight______ 3cSt_________ 29cSt
0W-30________9cSt__________29cSt

the 0W-30 has the best of both worlds. It's not too thick when cold, and not too thin when hot.

The 30 weight is too thick when cold, and the 0 weight is too thin when hot. The multi viscosity uses the BEST viscosity properties of the two rating.

Does that help???

[BarracudaBoy]

http://www.rockymountainmodelaclub.o...C_Mar_2012.pdf

Some more info if Allanw hasn't filled up your brain yet!

[Allanw]

That PDF is quite helpfull..



although... if you want to fill your head just a touch more...

they refer to straight weight oils as 20W, 30W and 40W when they actually mean 30 Weight in a number of places. The W is for Winter, not for weight.

You can buy 20W oil and 20 Weight oil. 20W oil will thin out like buggery as it heats up and be too thin at operating temperature, as it's rated for "20" SAE at 40C, where 20 weight oil is rated as a 20 weight oil at 100C.

Just to be picky


This seems pretty quiet for an oil discussion.