Whats guy to Do!

[Franchise_24]

Originally Posted by awander

Is it just me? I think refusing to name the guy who did this shoddy work is just ......wrong.

Message him privately if you want to know.

[Franchise_24]

Originally Posted by beaverton

Because it is incredibly false!!!!

Are you the engine rebuilder or a relative? You just joined the barn (welcome) and you jumped right in this forum, so I am curious....

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by beaverton

No time bombs here. beautiful forum for KNOWLEDGE. Not heresay. You folks sound like you have built a thousand engines, but want to apply 21st technology to to a hundred year old motor. don't fix it if it isn't broken. Thousands of motors on the road with purring motors.

The point of this thread is, this builder didn't build the bottom end like it was designed to be. Nobody here has suggested the bearings should have been built like this. If you knew how modern bearings were made and their design you would know, this style of work will never survive in a Model A. I agree with Franchise_24, do you have some stake in this design? If you want to advance your education about bearings, just sit there and read what is posted.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by Franchise_24

Are you the engine rebuilder or a relative? You just joined the barn (welcome) and you jumped right in this forum, so I am curious....

May be just that, Franchise_24. Probably would be best to not make waves here or someone might name names.

[allen]

Originally Posted by beaverton

No time bombs here. beautiful forum for KNOWLEDGE. Not heresay. You folks sound like you have built a thousand engines, but want to apply 21st technology to to a hundred year old motor. don't fix it if it isn't broken. Thousands of motors on the road with purring motors.

I'm sorry I do not understand you this thread is just about that don't change what henry did if you do not have oil valleys you change it????????

So help me out what are you talking about

[Randy in Illinois]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Ivoryjohn, Sometimes we all learn from the school of hard knocks. It's up to you but, for what's it worth, let it go. Don't let the aggrarvation get to you. It's not worth it. Some so called experts are full of it. Count your losses, do your research on the problem, and don't recommend this guy for his for his service. We all been there at one time or another.

[ivoryjohn]

Experience is what we get when we don't get what we want!

I have moved passed the irritation the poor quality work I received has caused. I will basically be paying for a new engine by the time all is said and done. No...it isn't fair but there is little that can be done to recover financially. I do however feel my job is done. I have raised awareness that there are characters out there that through intent or ignorance are producing inferior work and just don't care.

If you are contemplating buying an engine the record of my experience is my gift to the hobby so others don't suffer the same fate. "Ain't that sweet of me."

Before you spend the money on a major purchase I personally suggest you do deep research and get the recommendations of the fellows on the Forum. They may get distracted, go off on tangents unrelated to the subject at hand but jewels of wisdom will filter through eventually and you will be better informed before you drop your coins.

A tip of my hat and many thanks to all that contributed.

[jrapose]

It really is not a hard job to install the groove yourself.. use a babbit knife...I was taught how to do it in the navy. but it is the same with any babbit.. it cuts pretty easy so you might like to try it using some old rods or discarded block... I agree it does need grooves...
I would let the guy repour the babbit...then cut the grooves myself...be careful those knives are sharp.. if you will PM me I will loan you my knife, I still have it...looks like a tool that is used to checker gun stocks.

Joel

[mass A man]

Joel, Your post is very interesting! Could you start a new thread about this special Babbitt knife, maybe a picture of it if you could. The engine re-builder guys here on Fordbarn are aware of it, but I for one have never heard of this and find it fascinating.---Pete.

[Purdy Swoft]

[QUOTE=jrapose;472175]It really is not a hard job to install the groove yourself.. use a babbit knife...I was taught how to do it in the navy. but it is the same with any babbit.. it cuts pretty easy so you might like to try it using some old rods or discarded block... I agree it does need grooves...
I would let the guy repour the babbit...then cut the grooves myself...be careful those knives are sharp.. if you will PM me I will loan you my knife, I still have it...looks like a tool that is used to checker gun stocks.

Joel[/QUOTE


I only overhaul engines with good original babbit. The composition of babbit that is used for different applications can contain lead and be softer such as saw mill babbit or babbit that is used in pillar bearings. If the babbit is like Ford used, it would be almost like cutting steel.

I agree that oil grooves are important and the wells at the sides do look puny. Another thought is, model T's didn't have oil grooves or dippers on the rod caps and they somehow survived. I think if the babbit had been of the correct composition and applied correctly it would have lasted longer. If it was mine, I would find somebody else to redo the babbit.

[Purdy Swoft]

I can't pour babbit. I just overhaul my own engines. I've got several core engines that I've collected over a lifetime. I just pick a core with good babbit in the mains. I've got a few scratch awls in the tool box but mostly use them as line up punches.

[James Rogers]

[QUOTE=Purdy Swoft;472639]

Originally Posted by jrapose

It really is not a hard job to install the groove yourself.. use a babbit knife...I was taught how to do it in the navy. but it is the same with any babbit.. it cuts pretty easy so you might like to try it using some old rods or discarded block... I agree it does need grooves...
I would let the guy repour the babbit...then cut the grooves myself...be careful those knives are sharp.. if you will PM me I will loan you my knife, I still have it...looks like a tool that is used to checker gun stocks.

Joel[/QUOTE


I only overhaul engines with good original babbit. The composition of babbit that is used for different applications can contain lead and be softer such as saw mill babbit or babbit that is used in pillar bearings. If the babbit is like Ford used, it would be almost like cutting steel.

I agree that oil grooves are important and the wells at the sides do look puny. Another thought is, model T's didn't have oil grooves or dippers on the rod caps and they somehow survived. I think if the babbit had been of the correct composition and applied correctly it would have lasted longer. If it was mine, I would find somebody else to redo the babbit.

Actually Purdy, Ford babbitt is relatively soft. This is so that impurities can imbed in the babbitt and not damage the crank. The composition is 86% tin 7% copper and 6.5% antimony with .5% trace elements such as .35% lead and others. Any more lead than this will make babbitt hard and brittle, susceptible to to cracking from impact force such as piston force. This is why lead babbitt is used in pillow block bearings since rotational shafts with no impact force rides better and lead babbitt is has a lower COF (coefficient of friction).
Cutting the grooves and wells in Ford babbitt is pretty easy with the proper tools. I cut all mine while the line bore is still on the fresh block but, if I had to cut some in a block that was left without, I would use a babbitt scraper with the properly ground tip and the wells on the mill, which is how I do my caps. I believe Herm cuts his with a carbide cutter and a dremel or such. Either way is a very good way and much better than no grooves at all. The bearings in this thread are an example of lack of knowledge or just plain laziness because it takes about 10 minutes to cut the grooves and not much longer to cut the wells.

[Purdy Swoft]

James, I don't have the experience that you do with pouring babbit or the knowledge of the exact content of original babbit. I've had good luck with the eight original babbit model A engines that I have overhauled over the past 52 years. I've heard about a lot of babbit failures because of lead in the babbit. I just thought that if I can overhaul engines out of the junk pile, so to speak, that are still holding up, there is a good chance that something is wrong with the babbit content of an engine that fails in only 3000 miles. My experience with useing prussian blue and scrapeing babbit tells me that the original babbit is pretty hard. I just didn't think that it would be worth Ivory Johns time to let the same guy repore the babbit and then Ivory john have to put in the grooves.

[James Rogers]

Purdy I think you are correct on all counts except original babbitt being hard. Babbitt gets hard from use and contamination or age. If you are using older engines with used babbitt and you are not finding standard cranks, you are using engines with repoured bearings that may or may not be Ford recons. A used engine with good babbitt is a tried and true good set of bearings but to find one that can be scraped to a good crank and the thrust fit properly would be pretty rare but if you have the time and resources it could be done. I just don't have the time or resources and my customers wouldn't ever stand for me using engines with old babbitt. There are just too many variables to make it possible for me. I agree about Johns motor, the babbitt is poured and I will pick HIS reground crank up tomorrow morning. No switches or lies involved with this set of bearings and crank.

[Purdy Swoft]

Thanks James, A rebuilt engine wouldn't really be rebuilt without new babbit. I just overhaul engines for our use. Weve still got them all but one. My first model A, a 29 strip down had all standard pistons and bearings in 1960 when I got it. It caught on fire in 62 . I used that engine in three model A's over the years before returning it to the frame that it was in when I got it. I first overhauled it in 71. I removed the shims, borrowed a ridge reamer and hone , i lapped in the valves by hand and installed a new set of Burd rings, cam timing gear and gasket set from JC Whitney. I drove it every day for over 10 years with good service until the steel clad head gasket blew in the narrow spot between no 1 and 2. I overhauled it again in 03. The original babbit, though not perfect, I felt was still good enough to go some more. I sanded the caps useing a pane of glass and sandpaper until I could set them up at .002 clearance. I replaced some pistons and pins . its still running good and back in my first model A. My roadster, I believe was low milage and I was able to overhaul it with standard parts. I've got several cores and I do all my own work. My engines of course are not as good as a professional engine in most cases. Its just something that I can do. If I couldn't do it all myself, except machine work, I wouldn't be able to have the model A's that I have. In some ways , its kind of like some of the common men that drove them in years gone by had to do. I've got better tools now and can do my own valve work.

[Hitchhiker]

Originally Posted by beaverton

7000 miles on my motor, no oil grooves.

Originally Posted by beaverton

No time bombs here. beautiful forum for KNOWLEDGE. Not heresay. You folks sound like you have built a thousand engines, but want to apply 21st technology to to a hundred year old motor. don't fix it if it isn't broken. Thousands of motors on the road with purring motors.

Originally Posted by beaverton

Because it is incredibly false!!!!

Originally Posted by Franchise_24

Are you the engine rebuilder or a relative? You just joined the barn (welcome) and you jumped right in this forum, so I am curious....

three post, one thread....just joined....HMMMM

[Car Pit]

Ivoryjohn,
Thanks for starting this thread. I wish this had been here two months ago when I ordered my engine rebuild.
Experts can tell an expert from the want-to-be, but for many of us who are new to this gig, we place a lot of trust on posts from guys we don't necessarily know to give trustworthy direction. In my research outside this forum, I often see "Good questions to ask your painter, engine rebuilder, etc" but I seldom see what the answers to those questions should be. So, as much as I hate to hear you had a bad experience, I appreciate every little golden nugget shared by those who have been through this which the rest of us might learn from.

[J and M Machine]

Experts can tell an expert from the want-to-be, but for many of us who are new to this gig, we place a lot of trust on posts from guys we don't necessarily know to give trustworthy direction.

Car Pit:
The best advice I can offer you is to call any service provider and ask for references.
This chat room may be good for something but the advice you're getting is "Free."
That is what is to be remembered. A so called "Expert" In any chat room could be a full blow fraud in person.
It's your money do your research wisely.
Even in our trade there are very few good ones and lots of Hack's.

We're an engine rebuilder and we always provide people with our last five engines done and if they want more we'll provide it.

There's a famous local saying I always repeat " An Educated Consumer is Our Best Customer"

[CarlG]

It really doesn't take long reading on this board to figure out who the good guy players are and whose advice to take to heart.

[James Rogers]

Well, I got John's motor last week and yesterday I picked up his reground crank. I already had the block pressure washed and poured Saturday. I completed the bearings yesterday evening and it will be going back by Friday or Monday. From what I understand it took the last rebuilder 8 months to complete the job. I would rather get paid so, I try to get the job done ASAP. I just don't make any money looking at empty blocks and dirty cranks and deposits run out too soon and the work still has to be done.