The Ford Barn

flatheadmurre · 06-22-2016, 02:24 PM

Aluminum has its issues to but it aint close to cast iron in being sensitive to built in tension and cracking from that.
Cast iron with an odd shape (not uniform in thickness and shape) will cool unevenly and even if you put nickel and other alloys in, it will be a challenge.
To take on a project like casting a flathead block is a deep black hole that will eat you time and money for a long long time....i can just admire the people willing to do something like this.
Problem with making a better flathead block is that it will never be allowed in classic racing, so there´s another set of tooling to go authentic and improved.

aonemarine · 06-22-2016, 03:58 PM

pretty impressive casting...

aonemarine · 06-22-2016, 04:27 PM

Here is the question...
How much would you be willing to spend on a brand new fully machined flathead V8 ??

rotorwrench · 06-22-2016, 05:45 PM

Nobody will ever poor as many as FoMoCo did but if the rapid prototyping equipment gets good enough, it may be possible to do affordable low scale production. The old timers made the initial positive blanks out of wood & glue to get something to make the reverse negative molds with. Casting sand feels like clay when you work with it. The sand is very fine and the resin binder holds it together well. FoMoCo used a wire that was soft like baling wire to tie the different cores in the right place so the wire would meld in with the iron during the poor. The core box has to be designed to hold the outer shells just right so the core shift is kept to a minimum.

Rapid prototyping can 3D measure a part from hand made core positives and 3D printing can help some with resizing of positives to get something to make a good quality negative core mold out of. It definitely could speed things up a bit but I don't think it will help with the initial measurement of the inside cavities to make the 3D positives. Core molds are made about the same way that the final product is and they have to be made so that the sand cores can be removed easily without breaking them up. This is not an easy task. It would be a lot easier if someone had the original core molds and core assembly box. No one will give this kind of stuff up unless they get paid for it. Lots of hours go into this kind of stuff.

There are some liquid rubber materials a person could plug and fill cavities with but the block would have to be cut apart to get them out. They might be too flexible to work with after retrieval but it might work. If Ford did it, it can be done again but its not as easy as an overhead valve block. The valve pockets and exhaust runners make sure of that.

Bassman/NZ · 06-22-2016, 07:16 PM

Not relevant, but back in the 80s, an Australian dragracer built a block for a hemi out of steel plate. He made a heat treating box out of an old oil drum. I remember reading about it and seeing the pics in an Aussie hotrod magazine.

Bored&Stroked · 06-23-2016, 07:54 AM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I spent quite a bit of time looking at the Kirby aluminum block - didn't like the weird sleeve setup at all. I imagine they had some real issues trying to get it from "one off prototype" to anywhere near production - with the right tooling, fixturing, CNC programs, etc.. I can't imagine it ever being "cost effective" to do - has to be a complete labor of love where the amount of time invested comes from individuals with a passion and probably not a viable "new product introduction business plan". I've made a lot of those plans and spreadsheets - the numbers tell the story and they probably wouldn't be good in this case. BUT, when one has a lot of time, knowledge, computer software, skills AND relentless passion . . . things can get done! Go Ray . . . Go!

Henry Floored · 06-23-2016, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

I spent quite a bit of time looking at the Kirby aluminum block - didn't like the weird sleeve setup at all. I imagine they had some real issues trying to get it from "one off prototype" to anywhere near production - with the right tooling, fixturing, CNC programs, etc.. I can't imagine it ever being "cost effective" to do - has to be a complete labor of love where the amount of time invested comes from individuals with a passion and probably not a viable "new product introduction business plan". I've made a lot of those plans and spreadsheets - the numbers tell the story and they probably wouldn't be good in this case. BUT, when one has a lot of time, knowledge, computer software, skills AND relentless passion . . . things can get done! Go Ray . . . Go!

.......and yet unusual stuff gets made every day.

I think this should be a co-op with Ford themselves. For gosh sakes Ford is a leader in large casting technology.

If there is any engine that could use some updates it is the Ford Flathead. There are tons of Flatty's going together every year.

If Kirby's project didn't pan out the way he hoped at least he showed us the benefit of an improved design.

Do you all realize for example that Kirby was able to squeeze in a 3.5" bore by reducing the head bolt size, which gave him room for the bore periphery?

We discussed that one time and he felt that the original headbolts in the Ford were too large and unyielding. Instead of stretching to provide clamping force they warped the decks. I agree 100% with him. I would bet money that a longer "torque to yield" bolt of smaller diameter in a blind hole would be a vast improvement and make more room for a bigger bore at the same time.

J Witt · 06-23-2016, 09:04 AM

Interesting to read all the different takes on making new flatheads. My feeling about this is that such a project is quite interesting and would be fun to do.

When you got to the end though, what you would have is not a flathead engine like we know and love. You won't find anyone putting one in a show car for judging. If you want to improve the flathead, just go straight to a fuel injected Cosworth Ford DFV.

Another answer to the problem is to put in a cheap modern engine with roughly the same torque and horsepower (or more!) as the street rod guys do. Put your old flattie in a box and preserve it and sell it with the car. I essentially did this with my 1912 Model T which was powered by a 1921 engine with a generator and electric start. Sold it complete with a rebuildable 1912 engine.

I want my '36 to be as near original as I can keep it to have the feel, sound and "flavor" of the original. In that light, I'm rebuilding the original engine. If it turns out to have a cracked block or some other major disaster, a small block V8 will go in there in a New York minute.

John

19Fordy · 06-23-2016, 08:48 AM

Yes, EDELBROCK could cast a new and improved flatty, but the cost and market
won't justify it.

JSeery · 06-23-2016, 08:53 AM

Read an article on boat motor production a few years back. Ford claimed that they could produce all of the boat engines required for a year in just a few hours of production time and they didn't consider it worth the effort to change the production lines for that short of run. Considering how many boat engines are required in a year you can imagine how disruptive it would be to attempt to turn out flathead blocks/engines. It is my guess that no one if going to be willing to invest the time - effort - money required to produce such a complicated block for such a small market.

tubman · 06-23-2016, 09:07 AM

I don't think this will ever happen. Unless you substantially change the design of the new block to the extent that current speed equipment (heads, carbs, cams, and ignitions) will no longer fit, there will still be the same limitations of potential power output that exist with stock blocks. Sure, another 5 or 10% MAY be able to be picked up with better port design, larger bore, etc. but 300 hp (normally aspirated) will probably be still be out of reach for all but the very well heeled. The cost/benefit is just not there.

Plus, in the long term, I believe there is no shortage of good stock blocks. If the things I see posted on these forums are any indication, I'll bet there are thousands of guys out there that have multiple good blocks stashed away (I have four). I'm 74 and will never get around to using them. After my generation is gone in 10 to 20 years, there will probably be an oversupply.

19Fordy · 06-23-2016, 10:21 AM

Mr. tubman, I believe you are correct about blocks being "stashed" away.
There are car folks out there who have collected many parts they know they will never use. Someday, they will become available.

tubman · 06-23-2016, 02:03 PM

19Fordy,

I have a good 8BA crankshaft (checked at the machine shop), that I can't give away.

Tubman

Bored&Stroked · 06-23-2016, 02:25 PM

I know I have a 'good supply' of blocks and cranks!

Ol' Ron · 06-23-2016, 03:06 PM

Just remember the 258 is one mean reving machime, and cheep to build.

tubman · 06-23-2016, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Just remember the 258 is one mean reving machime, and cheep to build.

Ron,

Seems like you might need a crankshaft,

now there's shipping costs..............

Tubman

Ol' Ron · 06-23-2016, 09:59 PM

I have few as well. About 15 years ago I built up several 276 engines to sell and one 258. All had L-100 cams along with a bunch of used heads I picked up at fla markets. At that time I would mill all the heads .040" and carve my own combustion chambers. I also had a dyno. I sold the 276 engines right away one put out 135 HP and the other 140. but no one wanted the 258, so I made it my test engine. The dan thing mad over 150 hP@ 5200. All the others peaked at around 46-800. I'll admit it had a 4bl on. I sold it to a guy in New Hampshire. Never heard from him again. My first Hydro engine was a 258 and it was clocked at 61 mph The 284 that replaced it only made 58 MPH
I woukdn't throw them short strokers away, For just a set of pistons you could have a nice engine.

Tim Ayers · 06-24-2016, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

I have few as well. About 15 years ago I built up several 276 engines to sell and one 258. All had L-100 cams along with a bunch of used heads I picked up at fla markets. At that time I would mill all the heads .040" and carve my own combustion chambers. I also had a dyno. I sold the 276 engines right away one put out 135 HP and the other 140. but no one wanted the 258, so I made it my test engine. The dan thing mad over 150 hP@ 5200. All the others peaked at around 46-800. I'll admit it had a 4bl on. I sold it to a guy in New Hampshire. Never heard from him again. My first Hydro engine was a 258 and it was clocked at 61 mph The 284 that replaced it only made 58 MPH
I woukdn't throw them short strokers away, For just a set of pistons you could have a nice engine.

That's great! Good advice, Ron! Funny, I remember one of friend getting the flyer or something with those engines for sale back in the day. If I recall, none went for over $2K, right?

Somewhere along the line, I picked up a set of Edelbrocks that you worked over. I got them second hand, but the guy bought them from you at York many moons ago.

richard crow · 06-24-2016, 11:40 AM

the flathead eng has one big flaw that is the exhaust gases pass through the block .back in the day the traffic was not like it is today.it,s a hard eng to keep cool in heavy traffic. i know there guys that say thers run cool. have they ever been on the l.i.e or ca freeway at rush hour if you want to drive your car every day in heavy traffic which is just about every where. it,s not a good choice. i hate to say this but you can get a sb chevy a lot less then a rebuilt flathead . & go every where but if you just want to drive to car shows or back roads the flathead is great. or you live in a low traffic area

tubman · 06-24-2016, 11:50 AM

In the later ('49 and up) cars at least, I think they had the cooling problems mostly sorted out (I'm not an expert with the earlier cars). When I finished my '51 38 years ago, it had a recored radiator and a clean block, and I've never had a problem. I was in Chicago for a car show a year or two after I finished it (drove it there from the Twin Cities). I got lost and ended up in a huge traffic jam in 95 degree weather. There were modern cars pulling over to the side of the road because they were boiling (probably a good number of them were brand "X"), while I just drove on through.

If you get and keep everything maintained the way it should be, there shouldn't be a problem.

06-22-2016, 02:24 PM	#1
flatheadmurre Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 3,045	Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block Aluminum has its issues to but it aint close to cast iron in being sensitive to built in tension and cracking from that. Cast iron with an odd shape (not uniform in thickness and shape) will cool unevenly and even if you put nickel and other alloys in, it will be a challenge. To take on a project like casting a flathead block is a deep black hole that will eat you time and money for a long long time....i can just admire the people willing to do something like this. Problem with making a better flathead block is that it will never be allowed in classic racing, so there´s another set of tooling to go authentic and improved.

06-22-2016, 03:58 PM	#2
aonemarine Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Delaware Posts: 252	Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block pretty impressive casting...

06-22-2016, 04:27 PM	#3
aonemarine Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Delaware Posts: 252	Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block Here is the question... How much would you be willing to spend on a brand new fully machined flathead V8 ??

06-22-2016, 05:45 PM	#4
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 17,405	Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block Nobody will ever poor as many as FoMoCo did but if the rapid prototyping equipment gets good enough, it may be possible to do affordable low scale production. The old timers made the initial positive blanks out of wood & glue to get something to make the reverse negative molds with. Casting sand feels like clay when you work with it. The sand is very fine and the resin binder holds it together well. FoMoCo used a wire that was soft like baling wire to tie the different cores in the right place so the wire would meld in with the iron during the poor. The core box has to be designed to hold the outer shells just right so the core shift is kept to a minimum. Rapid prototyping can 3D measure a part from hand made core positives and 3D printing can help some with resizing of positives to get something to make a good quality negative core mold out of. It definitely could speed things up a bit but I don't think it will help with the initial measurement of the inside cavities to make the 3D positives. Core molds are made about the same way that the final product is and they have to be made so that the sand cores can be removed easily without breaking them up. This is not an easy task. It would be a lot easier if someone had the original core molds and core assembly box. No one will give this kind of stuff up unless they get paid for it. Lots of hours go into this kind of stuff. There are some liquid rubber materials a person could plug and fill cavities with but the block would have to be cut apart to get them out. They might be too flexible to work with after retrieval but it might work. If Ford did it, it can be done again but its not as easy as an overhead valve block. The valve pockets and exhaust runners make sure of that. Last edited by rotorwrench; 06-23-2016 at 05:55 PM.

06-22-2016, 07:16 PM	#5
Bassman/NZ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Napier, New Zealand Posts: 2,001	Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block Not relevant, but back in the 80s, an Australian dragracer built a block for a hemi out of steel plate. He made a heat treating box out of an old oil drum. I remember reading about it and seeing the pics in an Aussie hotrod magazine.

06-23-2016, 07:54 AM	#6
Bored&Stroked Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 5,723	Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I spent quite a bit of time looking at the Kirby aluminum block - didn't like the weird sleeve setup at all. I imagine they had some real issues trying to get it from "one off prototype" to anywhere near production - with the right tooling, fixturing, CNC programs, etc.. I can't imagine it ever being "cost effective" to do - has to be a complete labor of love where the amount of time invested comes from individuals with a passion and probably not a viable "new product introduction business plan". I've made a lot of those plans and spreadsheets - the numbers tell the story and they probably wouldn't be good in this case. BUT, when one has a lot of time, knowledge, computer software, skills AND relentless passion . . . things can get done! Go Ray . . . Go!

06-23-2016, 09:04 AM	#8
J Witt Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Acworth GA Posts: 534	Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block Interesting to read all the different takes on making new flatheads. My feeling about this is that such a project is quite interesting and would be fun to do. When you got to the end though, what you would have is not a flathead engine like we know and love. You won't find anyone putting one in a show car for judging. If you want to improve the flathead, just go straight to a fuel injected Cosworth Ford DFV. Another answer to the problem is to put in a cheap modern engine with roughly the same torque and horsepower (or more!) as the street rod guys do. Put your old flattie in a box and preserve it and sell it with the car. I essentially did this with my 1912 Model T which was powered by a 1921 engine with a generator and electric start. Sold it complete with a rebuildable 1912 engine. I want my '36 to be as near original as I can keep it to have the feel, sound and "flavor" of the original. In that light, I'm rebuilding the original engine. If it turns out to have a cracked block or some other major disaster, a small block V8 will go in there in a New York minute. John __________________ Houston, Tranquility base here. The Eagle has landed.

06-23-2016, 08:48 AM	#9
19Fordy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Coral Springs FL Posts: 11,603	Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block Yes, EDELBROCK could cast a new and improved flatty, but the cost and market won't justify it.

06-23-2016, 08:53 AM	#10
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block Read an article on boat motor production a few years back. Ford claimed that they could produce all of the boat engines required for a year in just a few hours of production time and they didn't consider it worth the effort to change the production lines for that short of run. Considering how many boat engines are required in a year you can imagine how disruptive it would be to attempt to turn out flathead blocks/engines. It is my guess that no one if going to be willing to invest the time - effort - money required to produce such a complicated block for such a small market.

06-23-2016, 09:07 AM	#11
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 11,623	Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block I don't think this will ever happen. Unless you substantially change the design of the new block to the extent that current speed equipment (heads, carbs, cams, and ignitions) will no longer fit, there will still be the same limitations of potential power output that exist with stock blocks. Sure, another 5 or 10% MAY be able to be picked up with better port design, larger bore, etc. but 300 hp (normally aspirated) will probably be still be out of reach for all but the very well heeled. The cost/benefit is just not there. Plus, in the long term, I believe there is no shortage of good stock blocks. If the things I see posted on these forums are any indication, I'll bet there are thousands of guys out there that have multiple good blocks stashed away (I have four). I'm 74 and will never get around to using them. After my generation is gone in 10 to 20 years, there will probably be an oversupply.

06-23-2016, 10:21 AM	#12
19Fordy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Coral Springs FL Posts: 11,603	Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block Mr. tubman, I believe you are correct about blocks being "stashed" away. There are car folks out there who have collected many parts they know they will never use. Someday, they will become available.

06-23-2016, 02:03 PM	#13
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 11,623	Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block 19Fordy, I have a good 8BA crankshaft (checked at the machine shop), that I can't give away. Tubman

06-23-2016, 02:25 PM	#14
Bored&Stroked Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 5,723	Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block I know I have a 'good supply' of blocks and cranks!

06-23-2016, 03:06 PM	#15
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,985	Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block Just remember the 258 is one mean reving machime, and cheep to build.

06-23-2016, 09:59 PM	#17
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,985	Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block I have few as well. About 15 years ago I built up several 276 engines to sell and one 258. All had L-100 cams along with a bunch of used heads I picked up at fla markets. At that time I would mill all the heads .040" and carve my own combustion chambers. I also had a dyno. I sold the 276 engines right away one put out 135 HP and the other 140. but no one wanted the 258, so I made it my test engine. The dan thing mad over 150 hP@ 5200. All the others peaked at around 46-800. I'll admit it had a 4bl on. I sold it to a guy in New Hampshire. Never heard from him again. My first Hydro engine was a 258 and it was clocked at 61 mph The 284 that replaced it only made 58 MPH I woukdn't throw them short strokers away, For just a set of pistons you could have a nice engine.

06-24-2016, 11:40 AM	#19
richard crow Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 1,863	Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block the flathead eng has one big flaw that is the exhaust gases pass through the block .back in the day the traffic was not like it is today.it,s a hard eng to keep cool in heavy traffic. i know there guys that say thers run cool. have they ever been on the l.i.e or ca freeway at rush hour if you want to drive your car every day in heavy traffic which is just about every where. it,s not a good choice. i hate to say this but you can get a sb chevy a lot less then a rebuilt flathead . & go every where but if you just want to drive to car shows or back roads the flathead is great. or you live in a low traffic area

06-24-2016, 11:50 AM	#20
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 11,623	Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block In the later ('49 and up) cars at least, I think they had the cooling problems mostly sorted out (I'm not an expert with the earlier cars). When I finished my '51 38 years ago, it had a recored radiator and a clean block, and I've never had a problem. I was in Chicago for a car show a year or two after I finished it (drove it there from the Twin Cities). I got lost and ended up in a huge traffic jam in 95 degree weather. There were modern cars pulling over to the side of the road because they were boiling (probably a good number of them were brand "X"), while I just drove on through. If you get and keep everything maintained the way it should be, there shouldn't be a problem.