The Ford Barn

mshmodela · 01-02-2016, 08:23 PM

[QUOTE=Y-Blockhead;1216674]When I was new to my Model A I would shut off the fuel while I went into a store (or where ever) and when I went to restart it would back fire and run terrible until I let it set awhile.

When I started NOT shutting off the fuel it did not act up. I can only assume that with the fuel shut off the gas in the carb got hot. Leaving the fuel turned on may have had a cooling affect.

I can think of no other reason for this phenomenon.

So now I just leave the fuel turned on all the time except when parked overnight.

Makes sense... In fact it might be actually safer... I happen to have flown on TWA 800/803 in 1995 about a year before that accident and that was a hot fuel vapor explosion... Keeping fuel in liquid form as opposed to vapor is saver during storage...

Dodge · 01-02-2016, 11:19 PM

I used to have a vapor lock problem with my 49 Ford V-8. It has the fuel pump on top
of the motor and on a hot day pulling a steep long grade it would act up. I got to carrying
a cooler with ice in it. I would get out and dump ice on the fuel pump and she would start
right up again and run the rest of the way up the grade. I think it was vapor lock.
I had another problem with the crap gas here in California a few years back when they
must have changed the gas forumla. I have a 1915 Model T which is hand cranked.
I have been cranking this car for 50yrs. so very familar with it.
I had filled the tank and parked the car. A week later I took the car out for a drive. It
started just like always when it was cold in the garage. One pull with the choke on and
one or two cranks and started right up. I went to the hardware store about a 10min. drive and went in a did some shopping. I was gone about 15-20 mins. and came out
to start the car. Usually it starts on one crank with no choke under this condition but
this time I cranked and cranked. I choked it a couple of times and nothing. I thought maybe I had flooded it so I pulled a plug, it was dry as a bone.
I went to the burger joint next door and got a cup of ice, threw it on the manifold and
it started right up. This happened a couple of more times after this so I called the tech
line for Arco gas. The tech told me they had indeed changed the formula and some older
cars had to crank a little longer as the fuel was evaperating in the hot intake manifold
before it could get to the cylinders. When I explained that I was the cranker and how
dagerous it would be I it happened in the middle of an intersection, he suggested I
put the mid range gas in it as it wouldn't evaperate as quickly as the cheap gas.
I did this and haven't had a problem since.

Mike V. Florida · 01-03-2016, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

I have never heard of "nitrogen enriched fuels".

Shell Nitrogen Enriched Gasoline

JohnLaVoy · 01-02-2016, 12:07 PM

A short version, altitude, temperature and fuel make up all create the problem. The last trip over the Continental divide on the 2012 Summer Tour 24 of the 25 Model As suffered the vapor lock condition.

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 01-02-2016, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnLaVoy

A short version, altitude, temperature and fuel make up all create the problem. The last trip over the Continental divide on the 2012 Summer Tour 24 of the 25 Model As suffered the vapor lock condition.

But is the root problem because of the fuel, ....or a mechanical issue that is the cause? (i.e.: "My Model-A always runs hot ...but I don't use a cooling fan." or "Model-A lights are too dim on 6 volts so I replaced my dingy original reflectors with sealed beams.")

Big hammer · 01-02-2016, 12:18 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Apple slices go good with popcorn Brent! AER in his instructions on operating his engines
says to not close GAV past 1/2 open, because of the nitrogen enriched fuels today!
This extra flow would help with vapor lock? Is the nitrogen enriched fuel the same as
corn gas or is it a double wamy?

Jerry in Shasta · 01-02-2016, 12:33 PM

It happened to us on a long tour. We pulled a long 6 mile gentle climb, temperature 100+, elevation 2000'. Mostly high gear but some second.

About 5 miles in to it, she shut down. Slapped some ice on the carb. and we up and going in 10 minutes we were up and going.

Made the rest of the climb with the hood halves propped open, and in second gear.

Big hammer · 01-02-2016, 12:54 PM

She'll oil at their pumps has some wording of nitrogen enriched fuel
I thought nitrogen as a gas, and would dissipate and had a good laugh!
I just pump it then go drive :-)

TerryH · 01-02-2016, 02:03 PM

I've asked this before, but never got an answer or even a comment: why is that many of us who live in California, and can buy only "crap gas" with corn in it, drive on hot summer days, and never experience vapor lock? If the gas were the main problem, then we would see far more cases of vapor lock in all those states that do not have fuel choices.....thoughts????? And I don't like crap gas....My main problem with it is my mileage surely suffers some....

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 01-02-2016, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerryH

I've asked this before, but never got an answer or even a comment: why is that many of us who live in California, and can buy only "crap gas" with corn in it, drive on hot summer days, and never experience vapor lock? If the gas were the main problem, then we would see far more cases of vapor lock in all those states that do not have fuel choices.....thoughts????? And I don't like crap gas....My main problem with it is my mileage surely suffers some....

I'll give you my opinion, ....there are WAY more folks out there who drive their Model-As on tours (-with the same gasoline) with frequency that never experience any type of "vapor lock" issue. Therefore how can they write about vapor lock?

Now the one thing I have noticed many times is that modern fuels go stale within a short period of time. Even 60 day old fuel will create driveability issues. Is it vapor lock? No, but folks gotta blame it on something. Ironically, how poor do we think the fuels were back in the depression era? Did the Model-A run on it then??

carolinamudwalker · 01-02-2016, 02:53 PM

Well, I feel better (I think) knowing it is not just me. Looking forward to summer Model A Times. Bob New Bern N.C.

700rpm · 01-02-2016, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I'll give you my opinion, ....there are WAY more folks out there who drive their Model-As on tours (-with the same gasoline) with frequency that never experience any type of "vapor lock" issue. Therefore how can they write about vapor lock?

Now the one thing I have noticed many times is that modern fuels go stale within a short period of time. Even 60 day old fuel will create driveability issues. Is it vapor lock? No, but folks gotta blame it on something. Ironically, how poor do we think the fuels were back in the depression era? Did the Model-A run on it then??

As usual, Brent has got it right. I just poured off 5 gallons of corn gas that had sat in my sedan for two months. The car, which normally performs beautifully, would barely start, then not run at all. I felt like I'd whipped a puppy. I put two gallons of real gas in and we're back to normal.

In 55 years of driving a Model A in all kinds of conditions I have never experienced anything like vapor lock. There have been high altitude effects, and loose wires, and overheating, but nothing I would call vapor lock. Just one man's experiences.

ed thibodeau · 01-02-2016, 06:34 PM

I leave 10% gas in my vehicles all winter and have never had a problem starting or running. In my 8N it sometimes sets for a year and again it has no problem starting or running.

700rpm · 01-02-2016, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ed thibodeau

I leave 10% gas in my vehicles all winter and have never had a problem starting or running. In my 8N it sometimes sets for a year and again it has no problem starting or running.

Oregon is notorious for high priced poor quality gas. Plus, we had something like 120% humidity and record rainfall from Nov. 1 - Dec. 31.

30aadoodlebug · 01-02-2016, 07:10 PM

There was a great article in Hemming's Classic Car about a year ago. When I find it, I'll post. Have fun with the popcorn...

marc hildebrant · 01-02-2016, 07:52 PM

With regard to the "vapor lock never happened to me, so it can't be true..."

My Model A has always started, so anyone that hasn't been able to start their car must not have a problem...eh?

Marc

Mike V. Florida · 01-03-2016, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marc hildebrant

With regard to the "vapor lock never happened to me, so it can't be true..."

My Model A has always started, so anyone that hasn't been able to start their car must not have a problem...eh?

Marc

I absolutely believe something is happening, vapor lock, or something else. Too many owners are having a problem.

Here in florida we have, hot days, cool days, high humidity, low humidity, and even "corn" fuel. My club does not seem to have any problems. There is nothing worse that a problem with no solution, especially when you read that others with the same car do not have the same problem.

I think Brent has come the closest, the problem is not a Model A problem but rather an individual setup problem. Timing, timing while driving, GAV setting, engine wear, electrical grounds, air flow, and so on and so on all make a car an individual. Some individuals have common traits.

Bob Johnson · 01-03-2016, 01:56 AM

I have had a problem several time with my Model A. I would not call it vapor lock. It happens when I slow down or more often when I stop right after a long run at speeds over 50 mph on a hot day. Here in California we have winter and summer gas. It happened once in December when we had a very hot week, over 80 degrees. I think it was because the winter gas boils out of the carburetor easier than the summer gas. When it happens all I have to do is open up the GAV and everything is fine. Depending on how bad it is I have to open the GAV 1 to 3 turns. After a couple of minutes I can turn down the GAV. One time I was going up a long steep grade. I have to open up the GAV 1 to 1.5 turns to keep the engine running right. Once I got over the hill I stopped for gas and the carburetor was so hot a drop of water would instantly sizzle and boil off of it. I used a gallon of water to cool down the carburetor. My analysis is that the carburetor gets hot enough to boil the gas. This is most likely to happen when you pull off of the highway and come to a stop. The residual heat in the engine super heats the carburetor. Since the gas has vaporized in the carburetor not enough can get through the main jet and the mixture is too lean. By opening up the GAV there is a second jet supplying gas and the mixture is corrected. Once the carburetor has cooled the gas is no longer boiling and the GAV can be turn down.

I do not have engine splash pans. Perhaps they might help the air flow to the carburetor and prevent the boiling gas.

Bob

MikeK · 01-03-2016, 02:21 AM

Painting the carb gloss appliance white to reflect the heat rather than the black that absorbs heat may help, but the purists with alternators and 16's would point fingers and have a stroke.

Putting a sheet metal heat reflector around the carb may help too, but the purists with heater holes chopped in their firewalls and aftermarket dizzy heat shields would point fingers and gasp.

Alcohol will help too, but only if you put it in a glass and drink it. By the time you're OK to drive again the engine will be stone cold and run just fine. The purists will wave bibles at you and lament the repeal of the 18th and the Volstead act.

carolinamudwalker · 01-03-2016, 08:47 AM

Ok, re-reading all the post's, heat seems to be a common thread. And the reason this was not a problem in the 30's is because of the fuel blends have changed! (Mike post #40) We hear adding all sorts of concoctions to the fuel: Diesel, ATF, Marvel mystery oil ect. is the cure. But I like Brent's post #2 " Folks will only believe what seems believable to themselves." going with that I like Bob Johnson's post #41 because it is just like the experience I had but was not smart enough to figure out the solution to get home. I know that I am going to hell for this but if it happens to me again that updraft carb. is history. Ill wait for John's report in the model A times before taking the drastic step of tossing the Zenith. Forgot one other post, "each car is different in the way it has worn, how it is tuned, and how it is driven." This may explain why some drivers have never experienced this problem. Sorry don't remember the post. Bob New Bern N.C.

01-02-2016, 08:23 PM	#1
mshmodela Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,765	Re: Vapor lock [QUOTE=Y-Blockhead;1216674]When I was new to my Model A I would shut off the fuel while I went into a store (or where ever) and when I went to restart it would back fire and run terrible until I let it set awhile. When I started NOT shutting off the fuel it did not act up. I can only assume that with the fuel shut off the gas in the carb got hot. Leaving the fuel turned on may have had a cooling affect. I can think of no other reason for this phenomenon. So now I just leave the fuel turned on all the time except when parked overnight. Makes sense... In fact it might be actually safer... I happen to have flown on TWA 800/803 in 1995 about a year before that accident and that was a hot fuel vapor explosion... Keeping fuel in liquid form as opposed to vapor is saver during storage... __________________ -Mike Late 31' Ford Model A Tudor, Miss Daisy I don't work on cars --I'm learning about my Model A. Cleveland, Ohio

01-02-2016, 12:18 PM	#6
Big hammer Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Land of Lincoln Posts: 3,430	Re: Vapor lock Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Apple slices go good with popcorn Brent! AER in his instructions on operating his engines says to not close GAV past 1/2 open, because of the nitrogen enriched fuels today! This extra flow would help with vapor lock? Is the nitrogen enriched fuel the same as corn gas or is it a double wamy?

01-02-2016, 12:33 PM	#7
Jerry in Shasta Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: (Old)Shasta (Redding) CA Posts: 388	Re: Vapor lock It happened to us on a long tour. We pulled a long 6 mile gentle climb, temperature 100+, elevation 2000'. Mostly high gear but some second. About 5 miles in to it, she shut down. Slapped some ice on the carb. and we up and going in 10 minutes we were up and going. Made the rest of the climb with the hood halves propped open, and in second gear. __________________ Connoisseur of Rust

01-02-2016, 12:54 PM	#8
Big hammer Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Land of Lincoln Posts: 3,430	Re: Vapor lock She'll oil at their pumps has some wording of nitrogen enriched fuel I thought nitrogen as a gas, and would dissipate and had a good laugh! I just pump it then go drive :-)

01-02-2016, 02:03 PM	#9
TerryH Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Fountain Valley, Calif. Posts: 937	Re: Vapor lock I've asked this before, but never got an answer or even a comment: why is that many of us who live in California, and can buy only "crap gas" with corn in it, drive on hot summer days, and never experience vapor lock? If the gas were the main problem, then we would see far more cases of vapor lock in all those states that do not have fuel choices.....thoughts????? And I don't like crap gas....My main problem with it is my mileage surely suffers some....

01-02-2016, 11:19 PM	#2
Dodge Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Sonoma, CA. Posts: 1,568	Re: Vapor lock I used to have a vapor lock problem with my 49 Ford V-8. It has the fuel pump on top of the motor and on a hot day pulling a steep long grade it would act up. I got to carrying a cooler with ice in it. I would get out and dump ice on the fuel pump and she would start right up again and run the rest of the way up the grade. I think it was vapor lock. I had another problem with the crap gas here in California a few years back when they must have changed the gas forumla. I have a 1915 Model T which is hand cranked. I have been cranking this car for 50yrs. so very familar with it. I had filled the tank and parked the car. A week later I took the car out for a drive. It started just like always when it was cold in the garage. One pull with the choke on and one or two cranks and started right up. I went to the hardware store about a 10min. drive and went in a did some shopping. I was gone about 15-20 mins. and came out to start the car. Usually it starts on one crank with no choke under this condition but this time I cranked and cranked. I choked it a couple of times and nothing. I thought maybe I had flooded it so I pulled a plug, it was dry as a bone. I went to the burger joint next door and got a cup of ice, threw it on the manifold and it started right up. This happened a couple of more times after this so I called the tech line for Arco gas. The tech told me they had indeed changed the formula and some older cars had to crank a little longer as the fuel was evaperating in the hot intake manifold before it could get to the cylinders. When I explained that I was the cranker and how dagerous it would be I it happened in the middle of an intersection, he suggested I put the mid range gas in it as it wouldn't evaperate as quickly as the cheap gas. I did this and haven't had a problem since.

01-02-2016, 12:07 PM	#4
JohnLaVoy Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Rocklin, CA Posts: 779	Re: Vapor lock A short version, altitude, temperature and fuel make up all create the problem. The last trip over the Continental divide on the 2012 Summer Tour 24 of the 25 Model As suffered the vapor lock condition.

01-02-2016, 02:53 PM	#11
carolinamudwalker Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 45	Re: Vapor lock Well, I feel better (I think) knowing it is not just me. Looking forward to summer Model A Times. Bob New Bern N.C.

01-02-2016, 06:34 PM	#13
ed thibodeau Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Pinckney, Mich. Posts: 174	Re: Vapor lock I leave 10% gas in my vehicles all winter and have never had a problem starting or running. In my 8N it sometimes sets for a year and again it has no problem starting or running.

01-02-2016, 07:10 PM	#15
30aadoodlebug Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Boxborough, MA Posts: 274	Re: Vapor lock There was a great article in Hemming's Classic Car about a year ago. When I find it, I'll post. Have fun with the popcorn...

01-02-2016, 07:52 PM	#16
marc hildebrant Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Cape Cod Posts: 1,128	Re: Vapor lock With regard to the "vapor lock never happened to me, so it can't be true..." My Model A has always started, so anyone that hasn't been able to start their car must not have a problem...eh? Marc

01-03-2016, 01:56 AM	#18
Bob Johnson Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: California Posts: 1,013	Re: Vapor lock I have had a problem several time with my Model A. I would not call it vapor lock. It happens when I slow down or more often when I stop right after a long run at speeds over 50 mph on a hot day. Here in California we have winter and summer gas. It happened once in December when we had a very hot week, over 80 degrees. I think it was because the winter gas boils out of the carburetor easier than the summer gas. When it happens all I have to do is open up the GAV and everything is fine. Depending on how bad it is I have to open the GAV 1 to 3 turns. After a couple of minutes I can turn down the GAV. One time I was going up a long steep grade. I have to open up the GAV 1 to 1.5 turns to keep the engine running right. Once I got over the hill I stopped for gas and the carburetor was so hot a drop of water would instantly sizzle and boil off of it. I used a gallon of water to cool down the carburetor. My analysis is that the carburetor gets hot enough to boil the gas. This is most likely to happen when you pull off of the highway and come to a stop. The residual heat in the engine super heats the carburetor. Since the gas has vaporized in the carburetor not enough can get through the main jet and the mixture is too lean. By opening up the GAV there is a second jet supplying gas and the mixture is corrected. Once the carburetor has cooled the gas is no longer boiling and the GAV can be turn down. I do not have engine splash pans. Perhaps they might help the air flow to the carburetor and prevent the boiling gas. Bob

01-03-2016, 02:21 AM	#19
MikeK Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Windy City Posts: 2,919	Re: Vapor lock Painting the carb gloss appliance white to reflect the heat rather than the black that absorbs heat may help, but the purists with alternators and 16's would point fingers and have a stroke. Putting a sheet metal heat reflector around the carb may help too, but the purists with heater holes chopped in their firewalls and aftermarket dizzy heat shields would point fingers and gasp. Alcohol will help too, but only if you put it in a glass and drink it. By the time you're OK to drive again the engine will be stone cold and run just fine. The purists will wave bibles at you and lament the repeal of the 18th and the Volstead act.

01-03-2016, 08:47 AM	#20
carolinamudwalker Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 45	Re: Vapor lock Ok, re-reading all the post's, heat seems to be a common thread. And the reason this was not a problem in the 30's is because of the fuel blends have changed! (Mike post #40) We hear adding all sorts of concoctions to the fuel: Diesel, ATF, Marvel mystery oil ect. is the cure. But I like Brent's post #2 " Folks will only believe what seems believable to themselves." going with that I like Bob Johnson's post #41 because it is just like the experience I had but was not smart enough to figure out the solution to get home. I know that I am going to hell for this but if it happens to me again that updraft carb. is history. Ill wait for John's report in the model A times before taking the drastic step of tossing the Zenith. Forgot one other post, "each car is different in the way it has worn, how it is tuned, and how it is driven." This may explain why some drivers have never experienced this problem. Sorry don't remember the post. Bob New Bern N.C.