The Ford Barn

FrankWest · 05-02-2015, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooder

As double D said, it's the casting of the pump that you want to heat, as it heats it grows the threaded hole in the casting away from the brass screw, thereby loosening the grip it has on the screw.
Martin.

True, but anything you apply to the screw will transmit the heat to the surrounding body also.

FrankWest · 05-02-2015, 03:55 PM

I will looking into getting the Drag Link socket until that I will apply liquid wrench and tap all weekend. Then might try small vise-grip pliers along the screw circumference.

JSeery · 05-02-2015, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankWest

I will looking into getting the Drag Link socket until that I will apply liquid wrench and tap all weekend. Then might try small vise-grip pliers along the screw circumference.

Not necessarily a drag link socket, but that is one use and one size. It is not easy to get much torque on the insert with a screwdriver also you need a blade that is as long as the slot with good square cut sides. With a ratchet you can apply pressure down to keep it in the slot and have some leverage.

V8COOPMAN · 05-02-2015, 04:36 PM

Frank......Real world, your biggest problem with that is holding that fuel pump casting firmly WITHOUT damaging it. That casting is very soft metal, and will easily bend or crack if you mount it in a vise. You WILL have to apply a lot of torque to that brass plug to get it to break-free initially. That is usually the case with any brass fitting that's threaded-into a carburetor or fuel pump, especially when it seats against a flat surface like yours does. When it finally breaks-free, it will make a "snapping" sound.....normal! The two dis-similar metals seem to chemically bond. Heat is NOT normally the answer.......steady, sufficient TORQUE is the answer, via a BIG, square-edged screwdriver blade forced FIRMLY enough into that slot so that it does NOT try to slip out of the slot.

I think I would screw that pump housing down flat onto a piece of immovable wood. I'd put two or three wood screws through those perimeter holes. With the housing screwed-down firmly, I would put that BIG, SQUARE-tipped screwdriver blade into the slot. The more-precisely the tip fits the slot snugly, the better. Take a pair of vise grip pliers and clamp onto the screwdriver shank at 90 degrees........tightly. Now, as you lean forcefully straight down onto the screwdriver, use the vise grips as a handle to turn the screwdriver counter-clockwise. MAKE SURE you push downward very hard as you're doing this so that the screwdriver tip cannot jump out of the slot. It WILL come out! DD

FrankWest · 05-02-2015, 05:04 PM

Praise the Lord! Got it out! Lots of liquid wrench and Irwin Vise Grips...
Clamped the round head and turned...Beautiful..
Irwin makes a great vise grip!!!!

FrankWest · 05-02-2015, 05:33 PM

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Now I have to get the top Cap nut of the fuel pump cover..It seems like it is an integral part of the cover, but from the service bulittins i see that it is not. Applying liquid wrench...This part seem delicate because the screen is held under the cover by a brass ring?

Working on antique cars is really a sort of archaeological dig..You have to handle things gingerly so they don't crumble.

FrankWest · 05-03-2015, 03:59 PM

Got the cap nut off! Finally, Cleaning and then reassembly.
Thank everyone for you suggestions

Charlie ny · 05-03-2015, 04:41 PM

Frank,
You missed a step.....after cleaning and before reassembling the seal
faces, one in the pump and one on the bottom end of the center 'stud' should
be refaced. The opening and closing of the fiber valves actually causes the faces
to become crowned and the new fiber valves will actually rock slightly and
not provide a positive seal.
OR
Maybe you'll get lucky and not have to bother refacing.....
Let us know.
Charlie ny

FrankWest · 05-03-2015, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie ny

Frank,
You missed a step.....after cleaning and before reassembling the seal
faces, one in the pump and one on the bottom end of the center 'stud' should
be refaced. The opening and closing of the fiber valves actually causes the faces
to become crowned and the new fiber valves will actually rock slightly and
not provide a positive seal.
OR
Maybe you'll get lucky and not have to bother refacing.....
Let us know.
Charlie ny

Thanks for telling me! The last thing I want is to put it back together and not function well. How do I reface??? Is this a filing or grinding thing? This is the first time I have tried to rebuild a fuel pump.??

Charlie ny · 05-03-2015, 06:00 PM

Frank,
I'm hoping someone will join in here regarding how they reface these
seats. I machine the faces using my lathe. The seat that is in the pump ( underneath
that brass 'screw' that gave you fits ) has to be chased on center...I use a single
point tool for this because it is a ways below the surface. Keep in mind the seats
have to be FLAT AND SMOOTH to seal. he only pressure on the fiber valve is that
dinky little copper colored spring.
I lieu of refacing.......no guarantees here.......is to assemble the pump as
were intending to do in the first place. Then by hand actuate the arm and see if
that action imparts a good vacuum pull at the inlet port and a good sense of
pressure at the outlet port. You may just get lucky !
Charlie ny

FrankWest · 05-03-2015, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie ny

Frank,
I'm hoping someone will join in here regarding how they reface these
seats. I machine the faces using my lathe. The seat that is in the pump ( underneath
that brass 'screw' that gave you fits ) has to be chased on center...I use a single
point tool for this because it is a ways below the surface. Keep in mind the seats
have to be FLAT AND SMOOTH to seal. he only pressure on the fiber valve is that
dinky little copper colored spring.
I lieu of refacing.......no guarantees here.......is to assemble the pump as
were intending to do in the first place. Then by hand actuate the arm and see if
that action imparts a good vacuum pull at the inlet port and a good sense of
pressure at the outlet port. You may just get lucky !
Charlie ny

Wouldn't you need a milling machine rather than a lathe to reface those ports?
I have a watchmakers lathe but it is only useful for making balance staffs and pivots.
I have those copper flimsy springs too...My rebuild kit has more beefy replacement springs..look like steel.
One of my fiber valve plates has shaved area on one side.
Do you know if someone sells those tiny little plates

Charlie ny · 05-03-2015, 08:40 PM

Frank,
Here goes...... if your lathe can swing the pump body. Turn up an arbor
that can be wrung into the port opposite the brass seat that is pressed into
the pump. Chuck the arbor with the pump hanging off of it in your lathe. Picture
now what you have....the brass seat is facing the tailstock and will be turning
on center. This permits you to face off .004 or .005 to clean up the seat. Do not
be tempted to plunge cut the face, tell yourself you must run the cutting tool
across the face. It is best to blue the face up prior to the cut and only go deep
enough to remove the blueing. After the cut take some 1200 emery and polish
your nice new seat.
Now using the same method only without all the jive of needing an arbor
chuck up the center stud and face off the seat there too.
Actually it's pretty simple once you do it a thousand times.

Charlie ny

FrankWest · 05-04-2015, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie ny

Frank,
Here goes...... if your lathe can swing the pump body. Turn up an arbor
that can be wrung into the port opposite the brass seat that is pressed into
the pump. Chuck the arbor with the pump hanging off of it in your lathe. Picture
now what you have....the brass seat is facing the tailstock and will be turning
on center. This permits you to face off .004 or .005 to clean up the seat. Do not
be tempted to plunge cut the face, tell yourself you must run the cutting tool
across the face. It is best to blue the face up prior to the cut and only go deep
enough to remove the blueing. After the cut take some 1200 emery and polish
your nice new seat.
Now using the same method only without all the jive of needing an arbor
chuck up the center stud and face off the seat there too.
Actually it's pretty simple once you do it a thousand times.

Charlie ny

Thanks for the details.
I appreciate your help.
When I test the pump for suction.
is it easy to see if the seals are not good enough by the suction felt?
Or can I still feel a decent suction and still have the pump operating at only 50%?

See attached material...Are these wrenches available? Or can you use needle nose pliers

Charlie ny · 05-04-2015, 08:03 AM

Frank,
Keep in mind we are discussing a simple Flathead...........no special
wrench is needed....just a 3/8 or 7/16 beat up box wrench is fine.
You want to especially feel suction for 10 or 15 seconds after you
manually actuate the lever arm.
Charlie ny

FrankWest · 05-04-2015, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie ny

Frank,
Keep in mind we are discussing a simple Flathead...........no special
wrench is needed....just a 3/8 or 7/16 beat up box wrench is fine.
You want to especially feel suction for 10 or 15 seconds after you
manually actuate the lever arm.
Charlie ny

Model B fuel pump, right

FrankWest · 05-06-2015, 08:26 AM

Thanks to everyone for your suggestions. I am now sitting down and
re-assembling the fuel pump.
When inserting ring gaskets and diaphragm do I coat gaskets with anything?
Oil or fuel then tighten??
I assume that attaching the pump to the engine and using the cardboard gasket that I coat that with permetex?

05-02-2015, 03:55 PM	#22
FrankWest Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 3,008	Re: Rebuilding a model B fuel pump I will looking into getting the Drag Link socket until that I will apply liquid wrench and tap all weekend. Then might try small vise-grip pliers along the screw circumference.

05-02-2015, 04:36 PM	#24
V8COOPMAN Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON Posts: 11,136	Re: Rebuilding a model B fuel pump Frank......Real world, your biggest problem with that is holding that fuel pump casting firmly WITHOUT damaging it. That casting is very soft metal, and will easily bend or crack if you mount it in a vise. You WILL have to apply a lot of torque to that brass plug to get it to break-free initially. That is usually the case with any brass fitting that's threaded-into a carburetor or fuel pump, especially when it seats against a flat surface like yours does. When it finally breaks-free, it will make a "snapping" sound.....normal! The two dis-similar metals seem to chemically bond. Heat is NOT normally the answer.......steady, sufficient TORQUE is the answer, via a BIG, square-edged screwdriver blade forced FIRMLY enough into that slot so that it does NOT try to slip out of the slot. I think I would screw that pump housing down flat onto a piece of immovable wood. I'd put two or three wood screws through those perimeter holes. With the housing screwed-down firmly, I would put that BIG, SQUARE-tipped screwdriver blade into the slot. The more-precisely the tip fits the slot snugly, the better. Take a pair of vise grip pliers and clamp onto the screwdriver shank at 90 degrees........tightly. Now, as you lean forcefully straight down onto the screwdriver, use the vise grips as a handle to turn the screwdriver counter-clockwise. MAKE SURE you push downward very hard as you're doing this so that the screwdriver tip cannot jump out of the slot. It WILL come out! DD __________________ *Click Links Below* __ ▼ *'35-'36 W/8BA & MECHANICAL FAN* *T5 W/TORQUE TUBE*

05-02-2015, 05:04 PM	#25
FrankWest Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 3,008	Re: Rebuilding a model B fuel pump Praise the Lord! Got it out! Lots of liquid wrench and Irwin Vise Grips... Clamped the round head and turned...Beautiful.. Irwin makes a great vise grip!!!!

05-02-2015, 05:33 PM	#26
FrankWest Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 3,008	Re: Rebuilding a model B fuel pump Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Now I have to get the top Cap nut of the fuel pump cover..It seems like it is an integral part of the cover, but from the service bulittins i see that it is not. Applying liquid wrench...This part seem delicate because the screen is held under the cover by a brass ring? Working on antique cars is really a sort of archaeological dig..You have to handle things gingerly so they don't crumble.

05-03-2015, 03:59 PM	#27
FrankWest Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 3,008	Re: Rebuilding a model B fuel pump Got the cap nut off! Finally, Cleaning and then reassembly. Thank everyone for you suggestions

05-03-2015, 04:41 PM	#28
Charlie ny BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 3,019	Re: Rebuilding a model B fuel pump Frank, You missed a step.....after cleaning and before reassembling the seal faces, one in the pump and one on the bottom end of the center 'stud' should be refaced. The opening and closing of the fiber valves actually causes the faces to become crowned and the new fiber valves will actually rock slightly and not provide a positive seal. OR Maybe you'll get lucky and not have to bother refacing..... Let us know. Charlie ny

05-03-2015, 06:00 PM	#30
Charlie ny BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 3,019	Re: Rebuilding a model B fuel pump Frank, I'm hoping someone will join in here regarding how they reface these seats. I machine the faces using my lathe. The seat that is in the pump ( underneath that brass 'screw' that gave you fits ) has to be chased on center...I use a single point tool for this because it is a ways below the surface. Keep in mind the seats have to be FLAT AND SMOOTH to seal. he only pressure on the fiber valve is that dinky little copper colored spring. I lieu of refacing.......no guarantees here.......is to assemble the pump as were intending to do in the first place. Then by hand actuate the arm and see if that action imparts a good vacuum pull at the inlet port and a good sense of pressure at the outlet port. You may just get lucky ! Charlie ny

05-03-2015, 08:40 PM	#32
Charlie ny BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 3,019	Re: Rebuilding a model B fuel pump Frank, Here goes...... if your lathe can swing the pump body. Turn up an arbor that can be wrung into the port opposite the brass seat that is pressed into the pump. Chuck the arbor with the pump hanging off of it in your lathe. Picture now what you have....the brass seat is facing the tailstock and will be turning on center. This permits you to face off .004 or .005 to clean up the seat. Do not be tempted to plunge cut the face, tell yourself you must run the cutting tool across the face. It is best to blue the face up prior to the cut and only go deep enough to remove the blueing. After the cut take some 1200 emery and polish your nice new seat. Now using the same method only without all the jive of needing an arbor chuck up the center stud and face off the seat there too. Actually it's pretty simple once you do it a thousand times. Charlie ny

05-04-2015, 08:03 AM	#34
Charlie ny BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 3,019	Re: Rebuilding a model B fuel pump Frank, Keep in mind we are discussing a simple Flathead...........no special wrench is needed....just a 3/8 or 7/16 beat up box wrench is fine. You want to especially feel suction for 10 or 15 seconds after you manually actuate the lever arm. Charlie ny

05-06-2015, 08:26 AM	#36
FrankWest Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 3,008	Re: Rebuilding a model B fuel pump Thanks to everyone for your suggestions. I am now sitting down and re-assembling the fuel pump. When inserting ring gaskets and diaphragm do I coat gaskets with anything? Oil or fuel then tighten?? I assume that attaching the pump to the engine and using the cardboard gasket that I coat that with permetex?