A perplexing oiling problem - A new one to me!

[Marshall V. Daut]

I have freshened up a previously-run engine with rings, new valves, adjusted bearings, etc. This was done on an engine stand, not in the car. I poured new oil down into valve chamber through the distributor hole, as well as through the filler pipe. 30 weight oil. The engine started and ran o.k. through several cycles, but I thought I heard a lifter noise, so I pulled the valve cover to re-check the lash. In the past, whenever I pulled the valve cover, copious amounts of oil ran out of the chamber. This time, however, no oil came out. The chamber floor was almost dry except for some oil around the oil pump drive gear housing. WTF??? I checked the oil level again and it was fine. I removed the oil plug on the side of the engine and pressed the starter rod to run the crankshaft a few revolutions as I watched the oil come out of the hole. I expected it to shoot out, as it does when I prime the pump in a cup of oil prior to assembly. Oil only dribbled out. I put the valve cover back on a started the engine with the oil plug removed. Rushing to that side of the engine, oil was coming out, but not shooting out across the room as I would have expected. The pump had been disassembled and the screen cleaned prior to putting it in the engine block. The gears turned fine.
I am concerned that the oil galley was virtually dry, with only a little oil remaining in the center of the chamber. The oil pump stream from the side hole was less than what I think it should be, although after running for only a few seconds, there was a lot of oil on the cardboard sheet I had laid beneath the car. Any ideas what is going on here? I've never encountered this before, nor a virtually dry valve chamber. Of course, I will not start the engine again until the problem has been identified.
Marshall

[katy]

Check the oil pump and passages. Did you do anything with the pump?

[jb-ob]

May I suggest checking the spring at the bottom of the oil pan that holds the pump up in place ? If the pump isn't fully engaging the drive gear, the 'valve lash noise' ??

What condition is the distributor drive gear spring?

(More to ponder with cup coffee. Why do we car people work thru holidays?)

[mcgarrett]

I know this is a long shot, but is it possible that the pin holding the sleeve on the oil pump drive could have sheared not allowing the oil pump shaft to turn properly? Or possibly the tab on the oil pump drive gear itself is broken? Just a guess...

https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/p...8814&cat=41694

[nkaminar]

The output for the oil pump has to line up with the gallery in the block. If it is not pushed in enough it could be out of alignment. Drop the pan and try to push the pump in to make sure it is fully bottomed on the block. Use a 2 X 4 or something else against the spring at the bottom to hold it into position and then use one of the oil pump holders that the vendors sell to hold the pump while you put the pan back on. It could be that the locating pin is blocked from fully inserting or some other weird thing.

After market oil pumps that are designed to have an external full flow oil filter have a different alignment arrangement. If you have one of these oil pumps then consult the manufacturer.

[Marshall V. Daut]

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All pins are o.k. when I assembled the engine, not sheared. The tang on the drive gear is good, too. I just examined that the other day when the valve cover was off. I am beginning to think that the oil pump might be a mix of early and later parts, meaning an early housing with the larger 5/8" unrelieved shaft. That would restrict oil flow from the pump into the valve chamber, I believe. That might be why I am not seeing the forceful shooting of oil from the side of the engine. Does that make sense? Anyone experienced these symptoms from a mis-matched oil pump?
Marshall

Added: I am also thinking that if I remove the valve cover AGAIN and activate the starter rod with ignition off, I should see oil pumping from the internal passageway at the front of the valve chamber, shouldn't I? I mean, the engine doesn't need to be running in order for oil to make its way from the pump through that passageway and into the chamber, does it? I'm thinking that because the galley floor is virtually dry, oil is not exiting that passageway, which is the main feeder for oil back up into the valve chamber. That would once again lead me to believe there is a problem with the oil pump. Reasonable? As I stated, this is a new experience for me and I'm eliminating possible causes one by one.

[nkaminar]

Marshall, Your idea of the wrong parts makes sense. I am afraid you have to take the oil pump out and examine it. There are some drawings and dimensions in the Service Bulletins that show the change in the oil pump. I would not keep trying to see if oil comes out but bite the bullet and pull the pump.

[Marshall V. Daut]

"It just gets curiouser and curiouser." (Andy Griffith)

Update: O.K. So, I removed the valve cover a few minutes ago. Recall from my initial post that when I did this the other day, the chamber floor was virtually dry except around the distributor/oil pump drive housing, even though the engine had probably been run 10 minutes total off and on over several start-ups. Dry! I re-adjusted the lifters and put everything back together again. The engine ran for about 5 minutes off and on before I shut it down because it hit me right then that I hadn't seen the usual overflow of oil from the chamber when the valve cover had been removed. Duh! Great time for that to dawn upon me, eh? That was why I posted my question above.
Well, when I pulled the valve cover off a few minutes ago to check the flow through the internal passageway, the front part of the chamber floor now had good oil reserves, but the rear area was virtually dry. I should think that even one or two minutes' running time should have been sufficient for oil to reach the back four lifter area. I did check the internal passageway flow by engaging the starter by hand. Nothing for two or three seconds and then the oil came out in a "gloop, gloop, gloop" fashion, which I assume is normal for a pump of the Model A design? I still think the pressure should be stronger, so I will drop the pan and check the oil pump for mismatched parts (wide unrelieved shaft in an earlier housing), but what confuses me now is why there wasn't much oil in the rear area, even though the front area of the chamber had plenty. If the oil had drained into the main bearing and camshaft passageways in back, why not also in front? I know that the two "nipples" on the valve cover help guide the oil flow to the rear of the chamber, but I am worried why that is area is comparatively "dry". What is going on here?
Marshall

[Marshall V. Daut]

Photos for the previous posting. Note the difference in oil on the valve chamber floor front to back, even after the engine had been run for five minutes or so.
M.

[Werner]

Marshall,


In order to be able to constantly monitor the oil flow, I replaced the end of the return pipe with a piece of clear plastic hose. You can see the oil flow when the engine is running.

[Werner]

nxt

[Marshall V. Daut]

Neat idea for the driver car! Here's a thought: If you placed the plastic hose at the top end of the tube instead of at the bottom, the exhaust manifold would obscure it so that its presence would not be so obvious. You would still be able to see the flow of oil as it exits the valve chamber. Just a cosmetic suggestion to enhance an already pretty good idea.
Marshall

[Y-Blockhead]

Marshall, I wouldn't be running your engine too much until you find your problem. I don't imagine you are getting a whole lot of oil to the mains, especially the rear main.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Yup. Everything is shutdown and partially disassembled. I'm ready to drop the pan tomorrow and examine the oil pump. The valve chamber passageway from the distributor/oil pump drive is clear. I just blew compressed air through it, so I can scratch that off my list of suspects. I'm still leaning towards a defective oil pump or mismatched parts. I'll know tomorrow after I test it in a cup of oil and then disassemble it. I just can't think of anything else that would be causing these scary oiling symptoms.
Marshall

[Conaway2]

I’ve tested several of pumps in the past couple of years by submerging the lower end in a container of oil and operating the pump with a variable-speed electric drill with a flathead screwdriver bit. Even at low speed, the oil pump can pump a surprisingly large volume of oil.

I think your idea of mismatched oil pump parts is a good one to check out.
Good luck. -Jim

[Hitman]

Looks fine to me based on the photos in post #9.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Conaway2 -
That's how I test oil pumps, too, usually using a large plastic cup with enough oil to submerge the pump partially. A good pump can squirt a stream of oil almost halfway across the garage! That's why I check pumps OUTSIDE!
Marshall

[Benson]

never mind I reread post #1

[Flathead]

Really interested to know what you find.

[Marshall V. Daut]

UPDATE:
The dirty deed is done and the pan has been dropped to test and examine the oil pump. After removing the oil pump, I tested it partially submerged in a cup of oil driven by a drill set in the reverse mode. Although oil did squirt out, I would have expected a stronger stream. Disassembly time. The pump housing is the later design with the four ribs on the shank and two bolts holding the cover shield in place. According to the Service Bulletins, this pump should have the 5/8" un-relieved shaft, which it does. But - I had a heck of a time removing the shaft to examine the bearing surfaces. I literally had to drive the shaft out of the housing with a drift and a used oil pump shaft! The metal surfaces that ride inside the bushings are galled. The shaft spun o.k. by hand before driving it out, so I am not sure how this condition could contribute to what I feel is a poor pressure from inside the pump. I will replace the bushings and use a new relieved shaft to increase the amount of oil surrounding the shaft. The Service Bulletins say it is all right to use the 9/16" relieved shaft in the newer housing, but not to use the newer 5/8" shaft in the older housing. So, unless there is an outcry here against swapping pump shafts, the relieved shaft is going into this pump housing along with a new driven gear. The Model B pump went back to the relieved shaft, so Ford must have recognized the value of that extra space between the shaft and the housing.
See the photos of the old and new shafts, as well as the housing. The galled shaft is the solid shaft without relief on its shank.
Marshall