New block, a further discussion

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Henry
Do you have a flow bench? I Built a home made on which I published the results in my book. Later I had access to a digital one which measured CFM, These thisga will break your heart. For one thing the exhausr is not the issue. If you can't get it in, you don't have to worry abput getting it out, Blower motors don't seen th have any trouble. I agree with you on the intake tho.

Not that worried about the exhaust Ron. Don't have a flow bench but I have done some illustrative flow testing with smoke and dry power introduced into the air flow.

My exhaust mods are more to create a less turbulent environment thereby reducing the chance for creating hot spots in the flow "eddys" that now exist in the end exhaust ports.

[Bassman/NZ]

I seem to remember the Motor City Flatheads project was at one time predicting they would run about $12K or somesuch.....

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by Bassman/NZ

I seem to remember the Motor City Flatheads project was at one time predicting they would run about $12K or somesuch.....

Yes I think that was their estimate for a complete engine cost. I assume minus the induction system.

[rotorwrench]

That may be for a complete engine assembly or at least somewhere near complete. Many of the changes made require the use of their proprietary parts.

[itslow]

For reference, the aluminum 348/409 blocks that are now available from the aftermarket are $5k+. That's also from a manufacturer (World Products / Bill Mitchell Products) that specializes in aluminum engine blocks and heads.

Granted that market would probably have a bit smaller audience at this current time, but original 348/409 blocks are much more scarce and expensive than their Flathead counterparts, which I think would make the demand similar (or perhaps even greater) for a brand new block. An aluminum Flathead block would have to be quite a bit cheaper to garner sales.

[mike in tucson]

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Maybe the easy way: Since the French flathead blocks were the last cast and had (supposedly) the latest technology, why not figure out who/where the French castings were made and contact them? Since the French flathead was the last made, there are probably people still alive who remember the process, etc. Also, the tooling may be still around.....or maybe the documentation. Then, after the IP is uncovered, look for an investor who can cover the pile of $$ required to initiate a pour. The machining is the simple part.....now days CNC equipment can make quick work of a casting machining operation. Anyone speak French?

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by mike in tucson

Anyone speak French?

Oui, oui!! That's all I can remember.

[richard crow]

why not just repro the ardun set up .

[itslow]

Originally Posted by richard crow

why not just repro the ardun set up .

That's already being reproduced. Cost is somewhere between $10k-20 for a set.

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

...Why couldn't some small windows be positioned in the block to provide access for supports for the internal exhaust cores? Wouldn't that make all the difference in the world?

After casting and machining, small cover plates could cover the access windows...

In order to support the cores for the exhaust passages, the windows would wind up being in the walls of the exhaust passages. Those would not be particularly easy to weld cover plates over. Not quite sure a thin "tin" cover would be an ideal thing to have in an exhaust port, either.

I think if someone is going to be spending $2500+ or whatever on a block, they aren't going to be willing to purchase one that has tin sides or covered core support holes in the ports.

[tubman]

The french block patterns may not be the way to go. Check this thread on the H.A.M.B :

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...#post-11572493

[KiWinUS]

The New RoushYates Aluminum block closely copied from the cast (kinda) Nascar block is $6500-7000 . I certainly can not see how you could design , cast & machine an Aluminum flathead block for even close to that ! But I am all in for 1 new aluminum fully machined , tested useable block @$3000 ! But my offer ends in 3 years !
Cheers
Tony

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

The New RoushYates Aluminum block closely copied from the cast (kinda) Nascar block is $6500-7000 . I certainly can not see how you could design , cast & machine an Aluminum flathead block for even close to that ! But I am all in for 1 new aluminum fully machined , tested useable block @$3000 ! But my offer ends in 3 years !
Cheers
Tony

Tony, are you referring to the RY45 engine? If so do you know if that is compacted graphite iron like the FR9 NASCAR engine? If that's the case I could see where the cost could be that much.

I wonder if an aluminum block engineered and machined here but cast overseas might be a little more palatable.

I honestly believe that the sleeving process could be eliminated and the PTAW process could be employed more ecomically and with less trouble than designing a sleeved (wet or dry) engine.

In addition the PTAW system would allow for a bigger bore from the get go with a higher quality cylinder surface to boot. It really is an amazing technology that promises to revolutionize engine design and or refurbishing.

Is there ever any chit chat around the Roush garages about the Flathead Ford knowing that Jack is a huge fan of these old cars?

Maybe he'd be the guy to talk to, to get the ball rolling. Or at least to get this pointed in the right direction.

[aonemarine]

I could see myself spending $2500.00 on a new fully machined block but not much more.
There is just too many good used blocks still available to warrant spending much more. Basically there just is not enough demand to make casting a new "replacement" block a fruitful venture.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by aonemarine

I could see myself spending $2500.00 on a new fully machined block but not much more.
There is just too many good used blocks still available to warrant spending much more. Basically there just is not enough demand to make casting a new "replacement" block a fruitful venture.

Considering that with the Flathead Ford you're getting the cylinder cases AND the porting and valvetrain area with the block itself I think $2500- $3000 would appeal to a lot of people. Maybe more than we think.

Do you suppose a block such as the one we are talking about could spawn the era of the $6500 Flathead crate engine that can entertain you with 200-225 hp and 275- 300 ft/lbs of torque?

[aonemarine]

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

Considering that with the Flathead Ford you're getting the cylinder cases AND the porting and valvetrain area with the block itself I think $2500- $3000 would appeal to a lot of people. Maybe more than we think.

Do you suppose a block such as the one we are talking about could spawn the era of the $6500 Flathead crate engine that can entertain you with 200-225 hp and 275- 300 ft/lbs of torque?

That is a very good question. Lets look at what is available currently...
complete rotating assembly (scat) 1800.00, cam lifters valve train 1000.00
oil pump 200.00, so yes I would say you could get a short block less heads and intake/carbs for 6500. provided the block could be produced for 3k

[tubman]

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

Considering that with the Flathead Ford you're getting the cylinder cases AND the porting and valvetrain area with the block itself I think $2500- $3000 would appeal to a lot of people. Maybe more than we think.

Do you suppose a block such as the one we are talking about could spawn the era of the $6500 Flathead crate engine that can entertain you with 200-225 hp and 275- 300 ft/lbs of torque?

Aren't we now talkng mainly "Hot Rod" engines for cars with upgraded drivelines, brakes, and suspension? The stock stuff is woefully inadequate for engines with this kind of power. I have thought from the start this thread is better suited to the H.A.M.B.

[aonemarine]

Originally Posted by tubman

Aren't we now talkng mainly "Hot Rod" engines for cars with upgraded drivelines, brakes, and suspension? The stock stuff is woefully inadequate for engines with this kind of power. I have thought from the start this thread is better suited to the H.A.M.B.

Never heard of a wolf in sheep's clothing?? So what if it hits a little harder and runs a little stronger as long as its appearance is stock.

[Diavolo]

Ok, dumb question time. Isn't one of the first things done to a flathead relieving the block to improve flow and isn't relieving considered the most bang for your buck in terms of performance? How is that going to work with iron cylinders and aluminum deck? Just a logistical question.

Oh, and block ready to assemble? Nothing else? $2500 if I was feeling nostalgic. As far as performance numbers, at this point I would build a stroker 302 for that price and be done with it.

[tubman]

"aonemarine", The kind of power we're talking here will surely cause problems (I know, I had a '36 3-window with a healthy 276" Merc). I am done with the part of my life where I enjoy fixing pre-49 Ford driveline boo-boos. A standard "traditional" hop up (heads, carbs, and a little cam) makng 125 HP, sure, but not at this power level.

"Diavolo", I believe current thinking is that relieving is of little value on any but the most highly modified engines.

[Henry Floored]

Well guys I built a 265" Flatty for my friend with a Max 1 cam. Careful porting no relief. It is backed by a T5 trans and runs a single 94 carb. It resides in a Model A Coupe with full fenders. It is a gas to ride in or drive.

The thing is the T5 and or the C4 automatic are becoming a popular way to get the most out of our dear Flatheads. It is simply an option that many builders are taking these days and they work well.