Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block

[Henry Floored]

You know I have to say I'm a little disheartened to hear all of the defeatist attitudes about the prospect of a new block. I thought this was America, the land of the "can do" attitude.

We don't seem to think like that anymore. We are acting like defeatists. We don't build the tallest buildings anymore. We don't build the nicest bridges anymore. We buy foreign made durable goods like cars at unprecedented rates. As Trump says we don't "win" anymore.

The engine in Chevrolet's Indy Car program was designed and made overseas. We don't have much of a space program anymore. We don't do shit here anymore.

All I see is how tough it would be and no one would buy one. I beg to differ. The Flathead Ford is the ONLY Ford engine that the typical hot rodder would ever consider for their early Ford car. Other than that it's straight over to Chevrolet because Ford never made an OHV V8, did you guys know that?

I believe this could be done and furthermore I believe it could be a reasonably successful venture. There are thousands of Flatheads being built every year.

Here's how it could work. Someone with the ability or access to the ability to design a new block is selected. The nucleus of the project could be held by the Early Ford V8 foundation. We could solicit participation by folks like Ford Performance and Jack Roush.

A design could be locked in then a funding campaign could be launched via the EF V8 club. Would any of you be willing to invest $25- $100 to develop a new block?

Would any of you like to be part of the process? Would you be willing to donate some time, experience or information.

In the end Ford Performance could be the network of distribution. All of the entities involved would be promoted as partners in this project thus some real good advertising exposure.

Something like this would probably never happen unless the proponents of and the enthusiasts for a certain thing actively band together and MAKE it happen.

So I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts. Am I delusional? Do I have any valid points? Let's kick this around a little and see where it goes.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

You know I have to say I'm a little disheartened to hear all of the defeatist attitudes about the prospect of a new block. I thought this was America, the land of the "can do" attitude.

You can dream if you wish, but people who know what is involved are trying to pass a little bit of that knowledge along. The flathead block is a very difficult block to cast (probably the most difficult around) and cost would most likely be in the $20k range. That is not realistic no mater how much you wish it was otherwise.

[Henry Floored]

Okay as far as technical details I'll throw a few of my ideas out for your consideration.

Number 1 I'd go with an 8BA design. I'd eliminate the removable valve guide altogether. If cast in aluminum (which is the right thing to do, who would not want to shed over 100 unproductive pounds?) I'd look strongly at "PTAW" for better quality, ease of manufacture, and even lighter weight. This is Plasma Transfer Arc Welding. It is an a amazing technology. It can be involved in moderately high volumes of production. Its cost effective compared to and probably ALOT less problematic as it is to fit a traditional dry sleeve in an aluminum bore.

As a side note a PTAW bore will run cooler since there is no joint between the liner and the cylinder itself.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by JSeery

You can dream if you wish, but people who know what is involved are trying to pass a little bit of that knowledge along. The flathead block is a very difficult block to cast (probably the most difficult around) and cost would most likely be in the $20k range. That is not realistic no mater how much you wish it was otherwise.

With all due respect I know a little about what it takes to get things done albeit on a smaller scale.

The question is could we count on your support should such a venture begin?

[Henry Floored]

If this theoretical block used PTAW you can thank industry for footing the bill on the development of this technology which has been successfully employed in automotive engines.

http://www.plasmacoatings.com/pdf/Wh...04%20Final.pdf

Next?

[flatheadmurre]

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Problem is if you alter the design nostalgic racing and the high buck motors are out of the equation.
Making an aluminum block sounds great to me...but how big is the market ?
Anyone involved in an adventure like this wants to at least break even in 3-5 years.
Get 100 paying customers to sign up for a block and then you can start thinking about it.
A prototype engine will not end up in the 20k range and for a small scale production to be within a reasonable cost you need templates and coreboxes to be made.
I have the furnace and will gladly poor your block if you fix the rest !!
But making the templates is not as easy as breaking a block apart and copying it.
You have to make compensation for shrinking.
Find out where to put the ingots and other things which will be different with aluminum.
You cant use coresupport rods the same way as in cast iron.
So will have to be some kind of wetsleeve engine.
Lots of small bits and pieces that ads up.
I said it before...i admire all the people doing stuff like this for the hobby...real labour of love!!!

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

Problem is if you alter the design nostalgic racing and the high buck motors are out of the equation.
Making an aluminum block sounds great to me...but how big is the market ?
Anyone involved in an adventure like this wants to at least break even in 3-5 years.
Get 100 paying customers to sign up for a block and then you can start thinking about it.
A prototype engine will not end up in the 20k range and for a small scale production to be within a reasonable cost you need templates and coreboxes to be made.
I have the furnace and will gladly poor your block if you fix the rest !!
But making the templates is not as easy as breaking a block apart and copying it.
You have to make compensation for shrinking.
Find out where to put the ingots and other things which will be different with aluminum.
You cant use coresupport rods the same way as in cast iron.
So will have to be some kind of wetsleeve engine.
Lots of small bits and pieces that ads up.
I said it before...i admire all the people doing stuff like this for the hobby...real labour of love!!!

If it were not for the aftermarket the small block Chevy would not be where it is today. Nor would the BBC nor even the vaunted Chrysler hemi.

There are quite a number of companies that manufacture blocks and heads for all of these engines.

For example the big block Chevy is limited in its ability to compete at today's competition levels. They are simply not capable of acheiving the displacement levels that today's racers need.

Solution? The aftermarket steps in and builds a big block Ford between the Chevy big block front cover, and bell housing flange. Everything in those new mountain motor engines is moved around and improved. It just so happens that those changes mimic what Ford did from the factory with the 429-460 engines.

This point always comes up. Maybe the powers that be need to revisit the question of a new Flathead block. Do Chevy's that run at Bonneville run factory blocks and heads?

Furthermore I wouldn't hinge the viability of such a thing on whether this block would be legal to race at the Salt Flats.

I want the guy with the '40 Coupe or the hot Model A or a hundred other street combos that would like more performance and oil control.

Look guys, block prep is ALOT of work. If you don't figure that time as money then a new block will never be a viable option.

Now as far as casting problems in aluminun I know almost nothing. I admit I have everything to learn. I will just say this. Maybe some clever internal design characteristics could be incorporated that would not change outward appearance not much if at all are in order.

Has anyone ever considered a two piece block for example? Can the valvetrain area be manufactured as a separate piece? Before you pooh pooh the idea, think about it.

[JSeery]

Guys, this block already exist! It has already been cast, built and tested! The drawings are done, the CAD work finished, the casting procedure is done. It is a physical engine you can look at. There are still insurmountable road blocks to bringing it to market. These are not easy task to accomplish, we are not talking heads or oil pans here. I worked in a foundry for years and have built casting molds. It is not going to happen.

[Henry Floored]

BTW, as I mentioned earlier. To have an international funds drive to fund this venture would be far more possible than trying to find a few guys willing to put up thousands while the rest of the Ford V8 world watches in anticipation.

Does anyone know how many members the EF V8 club counts world wide?

If such a project would cost say $500,000 US dollars and there were 5000 members of the EF V8 club willing to put up $100 I think that would about cover it don't you?

The original "investors" of course would be reimbursed on the purchase of their own new block.

Tell me again, why can't we do this guys?

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Guys, this block already exist! It has already been cast, built and tested! The drawings are done, the CAD work finished, the casting procedure is done. It is a physical engine you can look at. There are still insurmountable road blocks to bringing it to market. These are not easy task to accomplish, we are not talking heads or oil pans here. I worked in a foundry for years and have built casting molds. It is not going to happen.

The first part of your statement contradicts the last sentence. On one hand you say it was done, then you say it can't happen. Please fill in the blanks. I honestly would value the details of your opinion of this.

[JSeery]

The people that have build these engine are not able to get it on the market. They can build one-off engines but not production. If you were really wanting to do something like this get with them and see what is required to get the engine that already exist into production.

For some reason these links are not working, see post #15. The last link is a very detailed video.

http://www.motorcityspeedequipment.c...ge_id=newblock

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news...-just-wont-die

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news...-just-wont-die

http://www.hemmings.com/magazine/mus...d/1281426.html

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...athead.966947/

http://vintagemotorsusa.org/AluminumFlathead.html

I would love to see one on the market, but just don't believe it is going to happen anytime soon. The Motor City block has been advertised as ready to be mass produced for years. "Ready this fall" "Early next year" etc. for years!

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by JSeery

The people that have build these engine are not able to get it on the market. They can build one-off engines but not production. If you were really wanting to do something like this get with them and see what is required to get the engine that already exist into production.

http://www.motorcityspeedequipment.c...ge_id=newblock

http://www.hotrod.com/news/0603sr-fo...thead-rebirth/

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news...-just-wont-die

http://www.hemmings.com/magazine/mus...d/1281426.html

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...athead.966947/

http://vintagemotorsusa.org/AluminumFlathead.html

I know Mark and I know about his project. Whatever is preventing this engine from coming to market is a shameful travesty. As I have always said for what Ford Motor Company spends in a weekend on racing they could have pushed Mark over the top ten times over.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

I know Mark and I know about his project. Whatever is preventing this engine from coming to market is a shameful travesty. As I have always said for what Ford Motor Company spends in a weekend on racing they could have pushed Mark over the top ten times over.

Then guess I'm confused why you would think if they can't get it done why you would believe that a start from scratch approach would pan out?

[weemark]

I thought Don Ferguson was or had casting new aluminium blocks? I'm sure I seen a car with one it it, the engine had Ardun heads and a Scot blower atop and I am definite I was told it was an Ali block which was completely new.

[38 coupe]

A block for Ardun application is easier to cast than a block for flathead use. With the Ardun you don't need any of the intake or exhaust passages that add a lot of complication to the casting.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Then guess I'm confused why you would think if they can't get it done why you would believe that a start from scratch approach would pan out?

Two different balls of wax. I am speaking about an improved replacement block.

[flatheadmurre]

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

Two different balls of wax. I am speaking about an improved replacement block.

The MCF block is all of that including it´s a wetsleeve construction to get easier cores to deal with.
Going wetsleeve makes it a lot easier making the mold.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

The MCF block is all of that including it´s a wetsleeve construction to get easier cores to deal with.
Going wetsleeve makes it a lot easier making the mold.

What about an "open deck" design? Is that a feasible way to get access to exhaust port boxes?

[KiWinUS]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

The MCF block is all of that including it´s a wetsleeve construction to get easier cores to deal with.
Going wetsleeve makes it a lot easier making the mold.

MFC block is "Tricky" to machine has 3 sets of threads holding sleeves in , they MUST be timed . Too bad it has not made it to market.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

MFC block is "Tricky" to machine has 3 sets of threads holding sleeves in , they MUST be timed . Too bad it has not made it to market.

Hey Tony in the video it shows Mark Kirby explaining how and why the chilled ductile iron sleeves go up from the bottom and he even shows the mandrel that pushes them in.

I think the timed threads idea was eliminated. I believe it gets its strength in the parallel of the cylinder bores by internal ribbing and a "mid- deck" design.


http://vintagemotorsusa.org/AluminumFlathead.html