Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block

[Ol' Ron]

My eyesight was a little better. Yes I bought Offy 400 heads because they were thicker thicker than to older heads and I could make my own chamber. This was before CNC. I could knock off a set of heads in a day. Yes the base price was 2700 less intake and dist. I dynowed every one with my intake and dist. sold allot of SBC distributors, only had mechanical adv. It' nice to know several are still running.

[tub1]

Ol Ron please share the details how dose one get a flathead to 258 I'm very nterested in the combination of parts you need to assemble this motor

[tony starr]

Originally Posted by tub1

ol ron please share the details how does one get a flathead to 258 i'm very interested in the combination of parts you need to assemble this motor

+1

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[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by tub1

Ol Ron please share the details how dose one get a flathead to 258 I'm very nterested in the combination of parts you need to assemble this motor

That's a 3 5/16" bore with a standard 3 3/4" stroke. In other words 3.3125" bore X 3.75" stroke.

You take a Ford block and bore .125" over and viola! 258.5 cubic inches.

[Bored&Stroked]

It is a combination of a stock 3 3/4 stroke crank with a block bored to 3 5/16 (1/8" overbore).

With the shorter throw crankshaft, they should really rev up fast. Also, cheap to build in that you can use the earlier 59AB crank, stock 29A rods and floater bearings (which are a bit expensive and harder to setup), or just take the Ford 49-53 crankshafts that everybody has laying around (cause they put 4" merc cranks in them) and use a set of 49-53 rods with insert bearings and you're good to go. Easy engine to build with the cheapest parts available - you'll love it!

My personal favorite for a hot street engine is a 4" Merc crank and a 3 5/16 bore - 276 cubic inches.

[tub1]

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wonder if you can bore a 3 1/6 th 21 stud 1937 type motor this far make my 32 project run faster

[rotorwrench]

The 221 blocks don't have a lot of meat in the cylinder walls. A person could sleeve a block out to go big bore but I doubt that it could take a bore job that large without sleeves. Folks don't usually bore them much more than 3 3/16".

[Ol' Ron]

Yepadoodle!! That's the way it's done. Sportsman racing rules said 1/8 0ver bore stock crank and valves any cam one carb. A 258 block 400jr cam. 2GC carb, fixed IGN atrt 17 degs and go racing. Set em up loose. I knew a fellow that would buy a Sears rebuild ($139) put in a cam and run a season on it. put the stock cam back in it, and get another one.

[Ol' Ron]

Back then a new Merc crank cost 65 bucks. Who could afford one.

[tubman]

Hey Ron! Thanks for "making a market" for my old crank! You know I'm building my own 258". Almost the same as you're talkin' about : Isky Max-1, Edmunds heads with improved "squish" and extended tip plugs, Navarro "Universal" manifold with 2 94's (to start), and an old Mallory "flattop" distributor and "The Best Coil I Ever Made". As you can see, I'm going for an "old-timey" look. Because of the smokin' deal I got on a set of pistons from Speedway's garage sale section, I expect to be in it for less than $2000. We'll see.

[5851a]

What would the French have done with the tooling for the casting and machining of the flatheads?

[rotorwrench]

Good question! Their blocks were different but not different enough to be a problem. If a person could get the core molds and box, they would have most of the work done. The core molds that were different could be changed to get rid of the lump on the back of the block and improve the intake runners. There is a good probability that they were scrapped but you never know.

[Henry Floored]

You know I have to say I'm a little disheartened to hear all of the defeatist attitudes about the prospect of a new block. I thought this was America, the land of the "can do" attitude.

We don't seem to think like that anymore. We are acting like defeatists. We don't build the tallest buildings anymore. We don't build the nicest bridges anymore. We buy foreign made durable goods like cars at unprecedented rates. As Trump says we don't "win" anymore.

The engine in Chevrolet's Indy Car program was designed and made overseas. We don't have much of a space program anymore. We don't do shit here anymore.

All I see is how tough it would be and no one would buy one. I beg to differ. The Flathead Ford is the ONLY Ford engine that the typical hot rodder would ever consider for their early Ford car. Other than that it's straight over to Chevrolet because Ford never made an OHV V8, did you guys know that?

I believe this could be done and furthermore I believe it could be a reasonably successful venture. There are thousands of Flatheads being built every year.

Here's how it could work. Someone with the ability or access to the ability to design a new block is selected. The nucleus of the project could be held by the Early Ford V8 foundation. We could solicit participation by folks like Ford Performance and Jack Roush.

A design could be locked in then a funding campaign could be launched via the EF V8 club. Would any of you be willing to invest $25- $100 to develop a new block?

Would any of you like to be part of the process? Would you be willing to donate some time, experience or information.

In the end Ford Performance could be the network of distribution. All of the entities involved would be promoted as partners in this project thus some real good advertising exposure.

Something like this would probably never happen unless the proponents of and the enthusiasts for a certain thing actively band together and MAKE it happen.

So I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts. Am I delusional? Do I have any valid points? Let's kick this around a little and see where it goes.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Henry Floored

You know I have to say I'm a little disheartened to hear all of the defeatist attitudes about the prospect of a new block. I thought this was America, the land of the "can do" attitude.

You can dream if you wish, but people who know what is involved are trying to pass a little bit of that knowledge along. The flathead block is a very difficult block to cast (probably the most difficult around) and cost would most likely be in the $20k range. That is not realistic no mater how much you wish it was otherwise.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by JSeery

You can dream if you wish, but people who know what is involved are trying to pass a little bit of that knowledge along. The flathead block is a very difficult block to cast (probably the most difficult around) and cost would most likely be in the $20k range. That is not realistic no mater how much you wish it was otherwise.

With all due respect I know a little about what it takes to get things done albeit on a smaller scale.

The question is could we count on your support should such a venture begin?

[Henry Floored]

If this theoretical block used PTAW you can thank industry for footing the bill on the development of this technology which has been successfully employed in automotive engines.

http://www.plasmacoatings.com/pdf/Wh...04%20Final.pdf

Next?

[Henry Floored]

Okay as far as technical details I'll throw a few of my ideas out for your consideration.

Number 1 I'd go with an 8BA design. I'd eliminate the removable valve guide altogether. If cast in aluminum (which is the right thing to do, who would not want to shed over 100 unproductive pounds?) I'd look strongly at "PTAW" for better quality, ease of manufacture, and even lighter weight. This is Plasma Transfer Arc Welding. It is an a amazing technology. It can be involved in moderately high volumes of production. Its cost effective compared to and probably ALOT less problematic as it is to fit a traditional dry sleeve in an aluminum bore.

As a side note a PTAW bore will run cooler since there is no joint between the liner and the cylinder itself.

[flatheadmurre]

Problem is if you alter the design nostalgic racing and the high buck motors are out of the equation.
Making an aluminum block sounds great to me...but how big is the market ?
Anyone involved in an adventure like this wants to at least break even in 3-5 years.
Get 100 paying customers to sign up for a block and then you can start thinking about it.
A prototype engine will not end up in the 20k range and for a small scale production to be within a reasonable cost you need templates and coreboxes to be made.
I have the furnace and will gladly poor your block if you fix the rest !!
But making the templates is not as easy as breaking a block apart and copying it.
You have to make compensation for shrinking.
Find out where to put the ingots and other things which will be different with aluminum.
You cant use coresupport rods the same way as in cast iron.
So will have to be some kind of wetsleeve engine.
Lots of small bits and pieces that ads up.
I said it before...i admire all the people doing stuff like this for the hobby...real labour of love!!!

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

Problem is if you alter the design nostalgic racing and the high buck motors are out of the equation.
Making an aluminum block sounds great to me...but how big is the market ?
Anyone involved in an adventure like this wants to at least break even in 3-5 years.
Get 100 paying customers to sign up for a block and then you can start thinking about it.
A prototype engine will not end up in the 20k range and for a small scale production to be within a reasonable cost you need templates and coreboxes to be made.
I have the furnace and will gladly poor your block if you fix the rest !!
But making the templates is not as easy as breaking a block apart and copying it.
You have to make compensation for shrinking.
Find out where to put the ingots and other things which will be different with aluminum.
You cant use coresupport rods the same way as in cast iron.
So will have to be some kind of wetsleeve engine.
Lots of small bits and pieces that ads up.
I said it before...i admire all the people doing stuff like this for the hobby...real labour of love!!!

If it were not for the aftermarket the small block Chevy would not be where it is today. Nor would the BBC nor even the vaunted Chrysler hemi.

There are quite a number of companies that manufacture blocks and heads for all of these engines.

For example the big block Chevy is limited in its ability to compete at today's competition levels. They are simply not capable of acheiving the displacement levels that today's racers need.

Solution? The aftermarket steps in and builds a big block Ford between the Chevy big block front cover, and bell housing flange. Everything in those new mountain motor engines is moved around and improved. It just so happens that those changes mimic what Ford did from the factory with the 429-460 engines.

This point always comes up. Maybe the powers that be need to revisit the question of a new Flathead block. Do Chevy's that run at Bonneville run factory blocks and heads?

Furthermore I wouldn't hinge the viability of such a thing on whether this block would be legal to race at the Salt Flats.

I want the guy with the '40 Coupe or the hot Model A or a hundred other street combos that would like more performance and oil control.

Look guys, block prep is ALOT of work. If you don't figure that time as money then a new block will never be a viable option.

Now as far as casting problems in aluminun I know almost nothing. I admit I have everything to learn. I will just say this. Maybe some clever internal design characteristics could be incorporated that would not change outward appearance not much if at all are in order.

Has anyone ever considered a two piece block for example? Can the valvetrain area be manufactured as a separate piece? Before you pooh pooh the idea, think about it.

[Henry Floored]

BTW, as I mentioned earlier. To have an international funds drive to fund this venture would be far more possible than trying to find a few guys willing to put up thousands while the rest of the Ford V8 world watches in anticipation.

Does anyone know how many members the EF V8 club counts world wide?

If such a project would cost say $500,000 US dollars and there were 5000 members of the EF V8 club willing to put up $100 I think that would about cover it don't you?

The original "investors" of course would be reimbursed on the purchase of their own new block.

Tell me again, why can't we do this guys?