New Block thread on H.A.M.B.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Tod

OK, here I am. Wasn't really expecting the massive reception, but it's good to know there is interest. Fire away boys.

Tod

Hi Tod and welcome to FB. I too am glad you are coming with personal interaction with us. I guess my question is "why"? Looking at it from both an economics standpoint and a 'need' basis, what is your reasoning behind producing this?


From my perspective and experience, the supply of good cylinder case (block) cores is seemingly out there for future rebuilds providing someone is willing to work at getting them. Most professional engine rebuilders I know already have a handful of extra cores, so are they the ones asking for a new block? Now I agree that there are a few blocks (--by percentages) that have deteriorated cooling passages where replacement is best however I cannot help but ponder the thought that the perceived value when it comes time for someone to actually open their wallet to pay for this new block is possibly going to be disappointing. I hope I am wrong for your sake!!


To the group as a whole, I realize this is going to come across as me being a naysayer yet as I look at other items that have come --and now are gone, it does cause the thought of concern. A great example of this is the recent 'out-of-production' Burlington crankshaft where Chris did all the right things to create a nice product that would be considered a better engineered part over the original offering. The buzz was always how much this would improve the drivability of the Model-A and many folks seemingly offered great enthusiasm how they would buy one if offered, ....yet Chris stopped manufacturing simply because of lack of sales and ROI. Also, do we remember a few years ago where a newly manufactured Model-A transmission complete with a new case was offered yet look at the sales there too. Also consider how the new Stipe shocks are out of production now, and think about how the Brumfield was the head of choice until the market had an offering of multiple head manufacturers, ...and one went by the wayside. While I have no idea on the status of the Terry Burtz engine, it sure seems plausible to me that if there are two cylinder case manufacturers, the amount of customers who actually pay the money would be so few for each that the ROI is likely to create a financial hardship where it might follow in the same footsteps as Burlington, Stipe, Brumfield, et/al. So what am I missing?

[Tod]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Hi Tod and welcome to FB. I too am glad you are coming with personal interaction with us. I guess my question is "why"? Looking at it from both an economics standpoint and a 'need' basis, what is your reasoning behind producing this?


From my perspective and experience, the supply of good cylinder case (block) cores is seemingly out there for future rebuilds providing someone is willing to work at getting them. Most professional engine rebuilders I know already have a handful of extra cores, so are they the ones asking for a new block? Now I agree that there are a few blocks (--by percentages) that have deteriorated cooling passages where replacement is best however I cannot help but ponder the thought that the perceived value when it comes time for someone to actually open their wallet to pay for this new block is possibly going to be disappointing. I hope I am wrong for your sake!!


To the group as a whole, I realize this is going to come across as me being a naysayer yet as I look at other items that have come --and now are gone, it does cause the thought of concern. A great example of this is the recent 'out-of-production' Burlington crankshaft where Chris did all the right things to create a nice product that would be considered a better engineered part over the original offering. The buzz was always how much this would improve the drivability of the Model-A and many folks seemingly offered great enthusiasm how they would buy one if offered, ....yet Chris stopped manufacturing simply because of lack of sales and ROI. Also, do we remember a few years ago where a newly manufactured Model-A transmission complete with a new case was offered yet look at the sales there too. Also consider how the new Stipe shocks are out of production now, and think about how the Brumfield was the head of choice until the market had an offering of multiple head manufacturers, ...and one went by the wayside. While I have no idea on the status of the Terry Burtz engine, it sure seems plausible to me that if there are two cylinder case manufacturers, the amount of customers who actually pay the money would be so few for each that the ROI is likely to create a financial hardship where it might follow in the same footsteps as Burlington, Stipe, Brumfield, et/al. So what am I missing?

OK, let's see if I can summarize:

1) There are plenty of cores available.
2) Most builders have some cores so they aren't interested in a new block.
3) Other stopped or failed parts implies the need for no new blocks (Burtz included).
4) I can't possibly make this worth my while.
5) You definitely have no use for one of my blocks.

Seems you could have just stated #5 and left it at that.

Tod

[Crazydaddyo]

Originally Posted by Tod

OK, let's see if I can summarize:

1) There are plenty of cores available.
2) Most builders have some cores so they aren't interested in a new block.
3) Other stopped or failed parts implies the need for no new blocks (Burtz included).
4) I can't possibly make this worth my while.
5) You definitely have no use for one of my blocks.

Seems you could have just stated #5 and left it at that.

Tod

Well played!!!!!
Great attitude. Stock model A purists are notorious for tripping over dollars to save pennies.

Don't let this dissuade you from your pursuit. The improvements you are incorporating is benefit enough.


.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Crazydaddyo

Well played!!!!!
Great attitude. Stock model A purists are notorious for tripping over dollars to save pennies.

Don't let this dissuade you from your pursuit. The improvements you are incorporating is benefit enough.


.

X TWO !!
Well said and I would like to add to this....A LOT, but will bite the tongue.
Tod, FULL STEAM AHEAD AND DAMN THE TORPEDOES !!!!!!
You do not and should not have to explain WHY you do anything and what the heck is that about anyway ! I hope that you are taking notice and making a list..kinda like the white house does,eh

[johnneilson]

Originally Posted by Tod

OK, let's see if I can summarize:

1) There are plenty of cores available.
2) Most builders have some cores so they aren't interested in a new block.
3) Other stopped or failed parts implies the need for no new blocks (Burtz included).
4) I can't possibly make this worth my while.
5) You definitely have no use for one of my blocks.

Seems you could have just stated #5 and left it at that.

Tod

Tod,

As you well know, "You can't please everybody" stay the course, You win!!

BTW, just mention inserts and babbit and you will see the love........

Carry on, I am up for alum casting, not machined though. I have things to do and the stock holes interfere.....

John

[Tod]

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Originally Posted by johnneilson

Tod,

As you well know, "You can't please everybody" stay the course, You win!!

BTW, just mention inserts and babbit and you will see the love........

Carry on, I am up for alum casting, not machined though. I have things to do and the stock holes interfere.....

John

John,

Email me, and we can discuss the aluminum block.

Tod

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by M2M

I'm scratching my head trying to understand where the negative comment/s or negative tone is in Brent post. Brent welcomes Tod to the forum then asks Tod why he's decided to start making the item. That was negative? Brent then states that he fears there may not be enough demand for Todd's product, then goes on to list a number of good products that have gone out of production.

I would ask the same question. What's wrong with some reasonable negative questions or just playing the devils advocate? I didn't see anything in Brent's comment to provoke the smart azz answer Tod made. Sometimes it is better to keep your mouth shut and look like a fool that to open it and remove all doubt. Other comments follow the same line. I am not trying to be curt but, there is nothing wrong with civil discussion on a topic without insulting comments.
As for Tod's motive for pursuing this, why not. Ford did then and even now by building many failed engines and made great strides in development of motor technology by experimentation and successes. The way I see it, it is his time and money, let him use it as he sees fit.

[Franchise_24]

Originally Posted by James Rogers

I would ask the same question. What's wrong with some reasonable negative questions or just playing the devils advocate? I didn't see anything in Brent's comment to provoke the smart azz answer Tod made. Sometimes it is better to keep your mouth shut and look like a fool that to open it and remove all doubt. Other comments follow the same line. I am not trying to be curt but, there is nothing wrong with civil discussion on a topic without insulting comments.

Why the need to be negative at all? You both appear to be friends, you both do engines....makes sense you would defend him....

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by Franchise_24

Why the need to be negative at all? You both appear to be friends, you both do engines....makes sense you would defend him....

I am not defending any one person, just the right to have a civil discussion with both sides represented without smart alec responses. I don't even take offense to your implication that I am defending just Brent. if you look closely, you will see I defended Tod's right to spend his money and time as he sees fit.

[Franchise_24]

Originally Posted by James Rogers

I am not defending any one person, just the right to have a civil discussion with both sides represented without smart alec responses. I don't even take offense to your implication that I am defending just Brent. if you look closely, you will see I defended Tod's right to spend his money and time as he sees fit.

I guess the whole thing is just unfortunate because now Tod feels he can't talk about his project here and stated in his other thread he will only provide updates on the HAMB, and through PMs or his email.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Franchise_24

I guess the whole thing is just unfortunate because now Tod feels he can't talk about his project here and stated in his other thread he will only provide updates on the HAMB, and through PMs or his email.

I don't see it that way at all, did he tell you that was the reason?

There two identical threads here on the barn "New Block thread on H.A.M.B." and "New Block cast in OHIO." There is a thread 6 pages long on HAMB. It just stands to reason that placing comments and answering questions in one place that started it all, instead of three is easier.

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by M2M

I'm scratching my head trying to understand where the negative comment/s or negative tone is in Brent post. Brent welcomes Tod to the forum then asks Tod why he's decided to start making the item. That was negative? Brent then states that he fears there may not be enough demand for Todd's product, then goes on to list a number of good products that have gone out of production.

Ah, the fine art of debate. In a college debate there are strict rules about presenting information and it is judged impartially. A message board is more like a political debate- the rules are off and judgement is by many who have an agenda. Not everyone is here to weigh facts without opinion.

[Hitchhiker]

You guys do realize that this "new" block is an improved design, with provisions for pressure oiling and other similar advancements.

...Stuff that a lot of banger guys spend considerable time and money modifying originals to achieve the same results.

I definitely see a market for that...

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Hitchhiker

You guys do realize that this "new" block is an improved design, with provisions for pressure oiling and other similar advancements.

...Stuff that a lot of banger guys spend considerable time and money modifying originals to achieve the same results.

I definitely see a market for that...

Not yet the first block are pretty much like stock (Tods engines) he says it's easy to make changes to create almost custom blocks.

[Hitchhiker]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Not yet the first block are pretty much like stock (Tods engines) he says it's easy to make changes to create almost custom blocks.

this is a copy and paste from his first post on the subject...just what I was going on.


Hello gentlemen,

I'm Tod Buttermore, and new to this forum. As you can see I have a new Model A block underway, which I hope to have sample cast this fall or winter. I don't have alot of time to work on it since I machine parts for Snyder's Antique Auto Parts all day everyday. But after pecking away at it here and there I am finally getting near to casting a sample. Hopefully this will be a viable option to old and repaired original blocks. This block will have a pressurized oiling system and will accept stock sytled parts for final assembly.

I hope to sell them through Snyder's, mainly. As they are not yet ready for retail, please do not contact Snyder's for any details.

Tod Buttermore

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Hitchhiker

this is a copy and paste from his first post on the subject...just what I was going on.


Hello gentlemen,

I'm Tod Buttermore, and new to this forum. As you can see I have a new Model A block underway, which I hope to have sample cast this fall or winter. I don't have alot of time to work on it since I machine parts for Snyder's Antique Auto Parts all day everyday. But after pecking away at it here and there I am finally getting near to casting a sample. Hopefully this will be a viable option to old and repaired original blocks. This block will have a pressurized oiling system and will accept stock sytled parts for final assembly.

I hope to sell them through Snyder's, mainly. As they are not yet ready for retail, please do not contact Snyder's for any details.

Tod Buttermore

Not a problem with me. There was talk of different bearing sizes, pins for insert placement, 5 bearing surfaces, cast in aluminum, and the like. Cast for pressurization is not a big deal nor would it even be the reason for rejection buy even the most virulent purist.

I guess I just missed the point that Tod speaks to many variations that are easily made once the basic configuration gets the bugs out. With only one pour he seems to me to be light years ahead of the other block. But I confess to knowing nothing about foundry work.

As a Model A purist I will go on public record that if the exterior looked like an original and with necessity/funds available I would not hesitate to buy one no matter what was done inside.