Insufficient Hardness of New Lifters & Cams

[Shoebox]

Talking with my machinist while dropping off a block recently, and he mentioned issues he's had with some NEW cams and lifters having insufficient Rockwell hardness, said it seemed to begin 3-4 years ago. I've read here on the Barn about adjustable lifters from some sources being "soft" and a couple years ago one our own cam gurus here recommended I not get a cam on a new billet due to inconsistent heat treating.


Wondering what you guys have experienced, opinions, etc?


I'm not about to buy a cam right now, but would one be hesitant to purchase new, safer with reground on good core? Appreciate any input.


HAPPY NEW YEAR!

[GB SISSON]

I don't know much about cam grinding, but I recently used a cam like these that are available at Carpenters. I don't know what a core costs, but at least these are NOS. I used mine straight outa the box, stock grind.

https://redirect.viglink.com/?format...52-noscamshaft

[ms fowler]

I too have heard these horror stories--new cams/ lifters wiped out while being run-in on the dyno. I have heard several explanations--the switch to roller cams and lifters by oem has reduced the demand for flat lifters. That reduced demand has made the businesses that provide that service less profitable and driven many completely out of business.
All that makes sense to me.
My question is --How much "credit" for cam/lifter failures goes to the increased spring rates to get ever higher RPM?
Are we safer when we keep spring rates at, or close to stock oem?

[Ronnieroadster]

There's really nothing to worry about when it comes to our Ford flathead engine's. The amount of wear created by the spring rates needed for a flathead are extremely low when compared to what's needed by any type of over head valve engine. Another positive is the adjustable lifters available for the flathead are good quality. After building many flatheads none of them have ever experienced any cam or lifter failures. One important detail is to use oil that has some Zinc content.

The lifter and worn cams experienced by many shops for years has to do with not only the poor quality of the parts but also the elimination of Zinc in engine oil. Zinc was found to be a killer of catalytic converters in emission era exhaust systems. Along with the emission system changes many auto manufacturers went to roller lifter designs for the valve train. Rollers work fine without any need for zinc. For years almost all of the major engine oil manufacturers simply removed zinc. Once that began the valve train failures began.

Thankfully now there is a number of oils available with zinc added for our flatheads and every other overhead being built with non roller lifter equipped valve trains. I personally use roller lifters in my vintage engines simply because I can and of course like to make as much horsepower as possible with our beloved Ford flathead engine's. One reason why my stock block Ford flatheads burning gasoline run over 200 MPH with ease.
Happy New Year to everyone
Ronnieroadster

[Kube]

[QUOTE=Shoebox;2359417]Talking with my machinist while dropping off a block recently, and he mentioned issues he's had with some NEW cams and lifters having insufficient Rockwell hardness, said it seemed to begin 3-4 years ago. I've read here on the Barn about adjustable lifters from some sources being "soft" and a couple years ago one our own cam gurus here recommended I not get a cam on a new billet due to inconsistent heat treating.


Wondering what you guys have experienced, opinions, etc?


I'm not about to buy a cam right now, but would one be hesitant to purchase new, safer with reground on good core? Appreciate any input.

Started a long time ago, maybe twenty years ago or so. I got a set of Johnson adjustable tappets from Red's and a number of them were dead soft.
I would strongly urge you to have them professionally checked. Be certain to check them on the side, NOT the tappet face. And be sure to stone away the raised material from the checking process.
If memory serves, I used the N scale.

[Shoebox]

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[QUOTE=Kube;2359499]

Originally Posted by Shoebox

Talking with my machinist while dropping off a block recently, and he mentioned issues he's had with some NEW cams and lifters having insufficient Rockwell hardness, said it seemed to begin 3-4 years ago. I've read here on the Barn about adjustable lifters from some sources being "soft" and a couple years ago one our own cam gurus here recommended I not get a cam on a new billet due to inconsistent heat treating.


Wondering what you guys have experienced, opinions, etc?


I'm not about to buy a cam right now, but would one be hesitant to purchase new, safer with reground on good core? Appreciate any input.
















Started a long time ago, maybe twenty years ago or so. I got a set of Johnson adjustable tappets from Red's and a number of them were dead soft.
I would strongly urge you to have them professionally checked. Be certain to check them on the side, NOT the tappet face. And be sure to stone away the raised material from the checking process.
If memory serves, I used the N scale.

I was hoping PETE might way in on this issue too.

[KiWinUS]

[QUOTE=Shoebox;2359977]

Originally Posted by Kube

I was hoping PETE might way in on this issue too.

Unfortunately Pete was kicked off here for some reason. Too bad a very knowledgeable guy.

[Shoebox]

[QUOTE=KiWinUS;2359978]

Originally Posted by Shoebox

Unfortunately Pete was kicked off here for some reason. Too bad a very knowledgeable guy.

Very Knowledgeable indeed. Having helped so many folks, myself included, I find that really sad.

[Tim Ayers]

[QUOTE=Shoebox;2360406]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

Very Knowledgeable indeed. Having helped so many folks, myself included, I find that really sad.

Bummer for sure. Pete forgot more knowledge that most of will ever learn. That said, rules are rules and Ryan has final say.

[1952henry]

^^^^ yup. His house, his rules.

[Kube]

[QUOTE=Tim Ayers;2360539]

Originally Posted by Shoebox

Bummer for sure. Pete forgot more knowledge that most of will ever learn. That said, rules are rules and Ryan has final say.

Pete who? Seriously.

[flatford8]

He posted under that name ……..PETE…..I believe he was from Washington state…cam grinder and circle track racer I think…..he got some crazy HP numbers out of these old lumps of iron……Mark

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by flatford8

He posted under that name ……..PETE…..I believe he was from Washington state…cam grinder and circle track racer I think…..he got some crazy HP numbers out of these old lumps of iron……Mark

About Pete - https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/member.php?u=2

Location: Wa.

Occupation:
Mechanical engineer. Retired steam railroad engineer. Race shop owner. Cam grinding.

Interests: Vintage circle track racing.



Biography: Bonneville street roadster class winner 1956. - 163.93 mph.

[kiwi nz]

Wow!! a member with that "pedigree" banned and humble old me that has nothing, spectacular to add to my name is still here.
I will have to watch my "P's and Q's

[rotorwrench]

The Boss doesn't like folks straying into stuff that doesn't have much to do with old Fords. Some are more argumentative than others so he stops that stuff too. It's all about keeping the peace and staying focused on what this forum is all about.

There have been problems with some of the foreign made hollow adjustable cam followers. The solid chilled cast iron followers were good that were made by Johnson but there are other brands of those too. They have to follow the manufacturing processes to keep the hardness on some of this stuff. Cams can warp under certain hardening procedures but I don't know what the cam grinders do to restore hardness after a grind. The thickness of the surface treatment can be measured in the thousandths on those.

[TagMan]

Not surprised. Many companies are importing cores from off-shore companies. My son-in-law worked for a well known aftermarket cam, crank, etc., company and told me their reject rate For out of tolerance hardness, was near 50%. They had to go to 100% inspection. So much for the cost savings of going off-shore.

[GB SISSON]

In post #2 I was suggesting that the 150.00 Carpenters military surplus cams might be used as cores for grinding the popular performance grinds. They are in cosmoline and we know where they came from. The Arsenol of Democracy.