Difficulties installing & torquing rear drum - Help!

[psogden]

Before departing on a short trip for a few days (and getting back to the reality of the problem at hand) did some checking to satisfy my curiosity.

Here is part of a Ford Barn post from “Kens 36” dated 4-19-11: “A mailgram dated 10-20-47 (from the Ford Archives) detailed the procedure for assembling the hub and drum to the axle shaft. It specified use of a 24 inch handle and a torque of 300-350 foot-pounds. Service Letter A-25 dated 11-6-47 corrected the torque setting, stating: “tighten nut 356074-S to 200-220 foot pounds; then continue to the next castellation providing final resultant torque does not exceed 275 foot pounds.”

I then consulted (former and deceased) Ford V-8 Times great repair guru Dick Flynn’s article on the subject. Here is his recommendation. “Torque nut to 150-160 ft. lbs. of torque. The axle metal is grade 8 or better, 5/8-inch grade 8 bolt torque is 225 ft. lbs. So we aren’t even close to that."

So, obviously there is considerable discrepancy here. But 220 would appear to be pushing the outer limits if Flynn is correct.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by psogden

Before departing on a short trip for a few days (and getting back to the reality of the problem at hand) did some checking to satisfy my curiosity.

Here is part of a Ford Barn post from “Kens 36” dated 4-19-11: “A mailgram dated 10-20-47 (from the Ford Archives) detailed the procedure for assembling the hub and drum to the axle shaft. It specified use of a 24 inch handle and a torque of 300-350 foot-pounds. Service Letter A-25 dated 11-6-47 corrected the torque setting, stating: “tighten nut 356074-S to 200-220 foot pounds; then continue to the next castellation providing final resultant torque does not exceed 275 foot pounds.”

I then consulted (former and deceased) Ford V-8 Times great repair guru Dick Flynn’s article on the subject. Here is his recommendation. “Torque nut to 150-160 ft. lbs. of torque. The axle metal is grade 8 or better, 5/8-inch grade 8 bolt torque is 225 ft. lbs. So we aren’t even close to that."

So, obviously there is considerable discrepancy here. But 220 would appear to be pushing the outer limits if Flynn is correct.

psogden, I just sent you a pm on this, so it's probably not necessary to repeat all that I said there, but here is information on the subject of torquing early Ford axle nuts, that I just copied from the 32 to 53 Flathead Ford Techno Site.....

"Posted by Nirvana June 13, 2002 at 7:19PM :

I hate these senior moments!! I can't find my book with torque value of the axle nuts on a 40 stock rear end. 180 Lbs keeps ringing in the back of my emptyness, is this the correct value??

Thanks, might take her out for a spin this week-end after 3 years, if the wheels don't fall off first.

Posted by JWL June 13, 2002 at 8:32PM :

In Reply to: Torque value of axle nut posted by Nirvana from swd-pm1-007.inetnebr.com (209.50.13.147) on Thursday, June 13, 2002 at 7:19PM :

180 is on the low side, but will get you started before retorqing after the first drive. I use 220 and retorque weekly, on a rebuild, untill they stop moving. The spec sheets have varying values assigned to this connection.

Posted by FlatV8*June 13, 2002 at 11:49PM :

In Reply to: Re: Torque value of axle nut posted by JWL from 02-ocil-01f.dial.optilinkcomm.net (216.128.152.157) on Thursday, June 13, 2002 at 8:32PM :

The 'V8 Times', Sept/Oct 98 Issue, pages 46 and 48, quotes several Ford Service Letters and later corrections.
The final direction on tightening axle nuts reads: "tighten nut 356074-S to 200 to 220 foot pounds; then continue tightening to the next castellation providing final resultant torque does not exceed 275 foot pounds "

In my humble opinion, I would follow these specifications before I would consider the other torque specs you have posted above.

[psogden]

Am attaching a photo of the end of the axle where the threads on the 5/8 -18 failed at around 160 foot-pounds. I have removed the 5/8” washer to expose the edge of the drum. As you can see, (bit a bullet) there are still good threads on the axle. This would appear to confirm that the bolt was not a Grade 8 quality or it would not have failed. I do notice that the end of the key way on the axle is showing (right side of axle). Should the key way be exposed? Is it possible that the drum is on too far? If I understand the theory of the drum to axle fit, seemingly it would be impossible to torque the drum on too far. Am I correct or--??

[Bluebell]

First line in post #4, I mentioned a washer ...... Now that I have looked in a parts book, I will say again, "You need a washer" I think it is a fairly thick one.

Will a new nut (any one the right size) run on the thread easily?

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by Bluebell

First line in post #4, I mentioned a washer ...... Now that I have looked in a parts book, I will say again, "You need a washer" I think it is a fairly thick one.

Will a new nut (any one the right size) run on the thread easily?

The washer is part number 351505 and it 5/32" thick.

Bob

[JM 35 Sedan]

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Originally Posted by Bob C

The washer is part number 351505 and it 5/32" thick.

Bob

The washer is not in question here. He removed it temporarily at my request so that all of the axle threads would be exposed for the picture posted in post #20.

Everyone, please go back to post #20 and take a look at those threads, and comment on what you think of their condition. Are they likely to withstand the torque spec if an original Ford axle nut, with good threads, and the correct hardness is used? Your opinion of axle threads is what we are seeking here.

[psogden]

In reply to Bluebell, I do have the washer & pulled off as suggested by John before taking picture. I ran a brand new 5/8 -18 nut from NAPA on the axle & it went in about 1/2 way before tightening some so I didn't force. I do have one of those Bluepoint "thread fixer" tools but am reluctant to use it.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by psogden

Am attaching a photo of the end of the axle where the threads on the 5/8 -18 failed at around 160 foot-pounds. I have removed the 5/8” washer to expose the edge of the drum. As you can see, (bit a bullet) there are still good threads on the axle. This would appear to confirm that the bolt was not a Grade 8 quality or it would not have failed. I do notice that the end of the key way on the axle is showing (right side of axle). Should the key way be exposed? Is it possible that the drum is on too far? If I understand the theory of the drum to axle fit, seemingly it would be impossible to torque the drum on too far. Am I correct or--??

The keyway is normally cut into the threads some on these axles as a result of the cutter diameter they used, and the need to cut the keyway bottom flat enough in the area where the key normally fits.

After viewing this picture, which I had asked psogden to post here to get as many comments as possible on the condition of these threads, I believe these threads do have a good chance of surviving the specified torque IF an original Ford axle nut of the proper material and hardness is used. I had also suggested that the thick washer be removed when taking this picture so we could see the condition of the full thread length from the end of the drum snout to the tip/end of the axle.
Any additional comments by members here on thread condition, as seen in this picture, would be welcome.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by psogden

Am attaching a photo of the end of the axle where the threads on the 5/8 -18 failed at around 160 foot-pounds. I have removed the 5/8” washer to expose the edge of the drum. As you can see, (bit a bullet) there are still good threads on the axle. This would appear to confirm that the bolt was not a Grade 8 quality or it would not have failed. I do notice that the end of the key way on the axle is showing (right side of axle). Should the key way be exposed? Is it possible that the drum is on too far? If I understand the theory of the drum to axle fit, seemingly it would be impossible to torque the drum on too far. Am I correct or--??

Here are some closeup pictures of threads on several different axels that I plan to use in the next '35 rears I'll be rebuilding. I took these shots to show the profile of what I consider to be good threads on some good used axels. If you click on these thumbnail photos to enlarge them, then click and hold to get an option to open them in a new window, you can further zoom in on those threads to really see their profile.

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

Here are some closeup pictures of threads on several different axels that I plan to use in the next '35 rears I'll be rebuilding. I took these shots to show the profile of what I consider to be good threads on some good used axels. If you click on these thumbnail photos to enlarge them, then click and hold to get an option to open them in a new window, you can further zoom in on those threads to really see their profile.

John, Those are some of the finest threads I've seen on axles! I do see some galling on the taper of one, and some nicks on another. These conditions should be addressed before calling it a day: Remove the axle key, file down any nicks, and install the drum with a wheel (for leverage), using grinding compound on the taper. Tighten the axle nut only tight enough to snug it up while allowing the wheel to be turned by hand, thereby lapping the taper in. Remove, clean off the compound, and make the installation with the key. If this is done, there will be no need to retorque later, and your axle will remain tight and secure.