Another in the long line of timing questions...

[stouchton]

Looking for someone to critique or hold my hand on this....


Decided to reset my timing - car ran fine but I was concerned I had not set it accurately prior (i.e. rushed doing it!).

Basically, found TDC with the timing pin and confirming this seemed to be correct by watching piston.

Adjusted max point gap to .020"

Set cam to where the points were just closed (paying attention to taking up the backlash).

I have the cam set so that the points are just closed at TDC. If you advance the spark lever down 2 notches the points open before you get to the 2nd notch. I used the audible tone on a multimeter to tell if they were open or closed.

To me, this should be just a hint (degree or 2) retarded at TDC.

Engine starts and runs well, likes to be advanced about halfway while running, does not ping with full advance (though I don't drive with it there). However - I can over-advance at idle. At about halfway, the idle speed picks up like it should. Take the advance lever further and the idle suffers. I did not think you could dial enough advance in to hurt idle??

A friends car does not do this, and he swears he is timed accurately.


So, if you made it thru my long winded dissertation, is my timing method correct? Am I over-advanced or is the engine (idle) behaving normally?

Thanks for reading and appreciate any feedback. Basically just don't want to hurt the motor!

[Tom Wesenberg]

Your timing sounds good.

Compression will effect how much timing you need once the engine is started also. Higher compression needs less timing. My stock worn engine has 50 lbs. on each cylinder and I idle with the spark half down, and drive with it about 3/4 down. I don't fidle with the spark lever much, just pretty much leave it about 2/3 or 3/4 down when driving around. I'll retard it some when going up a hill.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi stouchton,

From the above information, sounds like you may have done something differently for a change.

You read Ford's very concise "Model A Instruction Book" that came with the car & absorbed the detailed information printed.

Many today never absorb what was is printed in this little valuable book.

I remember when this was the only book I had; but, like so many first car owners in the 1920's -1930's, with this one (1) little book I was able to keep my A running all of the time.

You paid attention to page 6 about advancing spark half way down after starting.

You studied page 28 on timing.

My feedback: Just keep doing what you are doing.

[Jim/GA]

Your timing sounds perfect to me. Not just the procedure, but the results of how the engine runs at various speeds with the timing lever in various places.

Remember that, as the points cam follower wears (even though you lightly grease the cam), the point gap will close slightly and the timing will be a little less advanced with time. No problem. Henry gave you more advance than you need for most driving, and these engines are very forgiving.

I would say that your friend's A is timed a bit less advanced than yours, or there is some other mechanical difference between the engines.

[stouchton]

Thanks guys - its nice to have some reassurance I am headed in the right direction with my Model A education.

And yes, read the "Model A Instruction Book" cover to cover, along with Les Andrews and Les Pearson's books, the service bulletins and anything else I could get my hands on!!!!!

[marc hildebrant]

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Your method sounds O.K., with just a minor point.
I believe that ideal timing would have the points open with a slight movement of the advance control.

The Les Andrews method calls for some retard with the spark advance all the way up. I believe that the correct setup is to be as close to zero as possible with the spark up.

Your description of engine operation is the same as mine....

Marc

[Patrick L.]

I too think you're right. I don't have a problem with the timing being retarded a bit. It won't hurt a thing. After-all how much advance does one need. Most driving is at half advance and open road cruising is about at 3/4. These engines certainly don't need 40º.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Dog slave here,
Ol' Bill's too tired to type this, jist ONE more time & he tole me to tipe it. He say's he's tiped it 17 times in the past!!
HOW TO KNOW IF UR TIMIN'S RIGHT
1- Spark up = a smooth, rythmical, TADA-TADA-TADA-TADA. (Yes, that's how Minerva said it, your car's LINGO may vary!)
2- Spark 1/2 down = a faster, SMOOTH idle. (Like a top spinnin')
3- Spark full down = an even faster idle, but a "ROLLING" idle. (Like up & down, like a YO-YO!)

Iffin' you have all the above, the timin's PERFECT, don't diddle wih it!
Iffin' you don't have all the above, you may have to make a SMALL adjustment, either to the RETARD, or the ADVANCE direction.
Ol' Bill jist quoted, "Now print this out & stick it on yo' dash, or type it out BACKWARDS & stick it on yo' brow, so's you can read it in yo' rear view mirror, or, so's you don't lose it, just TATOO it BACKWARDS on your WRINKLED forehead & you kin still read it in your rear view mirror, if in fact you CAN read"!!
Please don't jump on this poor Dog fer tiping this, I jist WORK here! Buster T. (I'm POOPED, I typed this WHOLE thing TWICE, I lost it once, when I clicked sumptin' wrong with that one DANGED loooong claw!)

[Purdy Swoft]

You tell um Buster T, I ain't ah saying nuffin. I've found, it don't do nair bit of good.

[PC/SR]

Yo Buster: No need to be a slave dog in this day and age. Join the ACLU (Animals Civil Liberties Union.) Things got a lot better around here when I joined up. Food on time, more pets, etc.
Your friend, Alex the Poodle.
(PS: I'm French and dont know anything about A's, so this is just between you and me and is the last you will hear from me.)

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Dog slave here,
Ol' Bill's too tired to type this, jist ONE more time & he tole me to tipe it. He say's he's tiped it 17 times in the past!!
HOW TO KNOW IF UR TIMIN'S RIGHT
1- Spark up = a smooth, rythmical, TADA-TADA-TADA-TADA. (Yes, that's how Minerva said it, your car's LINGO may vary!)
2- Spark 1/2 down = a faster, SMOOTH idle. (Like a top spinnin')
3- Spark full down = an even faster idle, but a "ROLLING" idle. (Like up & down, like a YO-YO!)

Iffin' you have all the above, the timin's PERFECT, don't diddle wih it!
Iffin' you don't have all the above, you may have to make a SMALL adjustment, either to the RETARD, or the ADVANCE direction.
Ol' Bill jist quoted, "Now print this out & stick it on yo' dash, or type it out BACKWARDS & stick it on yo' brow, so's you can read it in yo' rear view mirror, or, so's you don't lose it, just TATOO it BACKWARDS on your WRINKLED forehead & you kin still read it in your rear view mirror, if in fact you CAN read"!!
Please don't jump on this poor Dog fer tiping this, I jist WORK here! Buster T. (I'm POOPED, I typed this WHOLE thing TWICE, I lost it once, when I clicked sumptin' wrong with that one DANGED loooong claw!)

Yes, we're repitious, I did this whole thing again because often when sumbodys car FARTS, they say, "Maybe my timin's not right"! Instead of diagnosing what is wrong! This is a quick, foolproof way to see if the timing IS right. Timing should NOT be a "MYSTERIOUS" thing & timing does NOT just "jump" for some unknown reason. Timing can only change, ever so slighly, as the point rubbing block wears a little & closes up the point gap slighly. Just re-set the point gap & the timing is back to correct TDC setting. Timing CAN change if the cam lobe screw is not tight, or the washer under the screw is missing!
IF YOU JUST "HAVE" TO TINKER WITH SUMPTHIN' Try adjusting yo' HORN fur good sounds, at least if you screw up on that, the car will still run good!!
Forgive me if I sound "tiffy", it's late & I jist did my BILLS! When I was born, Chief said, "OH NO! another bill, HEY, we'll just name the poor ugly thing, BILL"! Wish I had been called BOB!
Bill W.

[redmodelt]

Maybe I am missing something here, but all instructions I have seen were to set the point just to open at TDC/pin in dimple with the spark lever all the way up. Timing by above method, would that have the motor firing before of after TDC with the lever all the way up?

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by redmodelt

Maybe I am missing something here, but all instructions I have seen were to set the point just to open at TDC/pin in dimple with the spark lever all the way up. Timing by above method, would that have the motor firing before of after TDC with the lever all the way up?

When the points open the spark fires.

Points closed with at TDC, just past TDC the points open and the spark fires.

[Purdy Swoft]

All of the stuff about the spark and points is what makes it so damn hard for most to under stand. Why not just make it easy and be done with it? Set the timing FIRST, check points action with the spark retarded next. If points don't just start to open when the dist. cam moves counter clockwise, back track until you find the problem. Forget all of the stuff about the spark lever and points. Remove the spark plugs so that you don't have to fight the compression when trying to find the timing mark. When the timing pin drops in place, adjust the points cam so that the trailing edge of the rotor tip points exactly at the number one contact in the distributor cap body with no clockwise backlash. There will be foward and backward rotation in the distributor shaft, this is what I refer to as backlash. When the cam is tightenen the rotor tip should point exactly at the number one contact in the cap and all backlash must be in the counter clockwise direction. Then to check for accuracy, fully retard the spark lever. With the spark retarded, the points should just begin to open when the tightened points cam moves in the counter clockwise direction. If the points don't open correctly check points gap, I usually set mine at .022, I'm not a happy medium guy, I go all out. Another possibility could be a bad distributor cam. Check points gap on all four lobes to check cam for accuracy. Are you sure that the timing pin was on the mark exactly? Are you getting full movement of the breaker plate lever in the window of the distributor cap,. in both retard and advance direction? If not getting full movement of the breaker plate an adjustment may be needed at the coiumn tube if you use the 2 tooth steering. The modern points setups that I've seen, usually have the points mounted in a slightly different place and causes the timing to have to be tweaked to find a happy medium, in such cases, the timing will never be exact but will get by untill the condenser or points fail. Then its back to the drawing board and hope that it doesn't happen in traffic on a busy highway

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

What we're striving for is to have the points JUST break contact at EXACTLY TDC! The actual "EXPLOSION" in the cylinder happens a nano second or two AFTER the points break, which will be also a minute amount ATDC! Bill W.