Burtz Block Price??

[Y-Blockhead]

I wonder how the new tariffs are going to effect the price of the new Burtz Blocks and other Model A Parts (among other things)?

[ModelA29]

Maybe enough they'll cast it here........

[CarlG]

25%, but of what? Certainly hope it's not full retail.

[ronn]

if the price goes much higher, sales will drop. not a good outcome.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by CarlG

25%, but of what? Certainly hope it's not full retail.

25% of what the American buyer pays the Chinese manufacturer.

Originally Posted by ModelA29

Maybe enough they'll cast it here........

Terry searched the US from the Canadian border to Mexico, east coast to west. He was unable to find anybody it the US who can still pour an engine block. IMO, that really highlights how big would be the task of taking those (and other ) jobs back to the US. There is not even anybody to teach the skill to others.
We have exactly the same situation over here. So much of what we use is made in China that neither we nor you guys could defend ourselves against attack unless China approves. I'll let you guys join the next dot.

[Oldbluoval]

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Synchro
Sure makes one wonder about how the USA would put forth a war effort if necessary.
Order parts from an enemy? Yeah right
Delivery might be dang slow! Like when we’ve lost! We might not even get uniforms!
Crazy crazy

[alexiskai]

There was plenty of warning. The smart play would have been to build up stateside inventories and try to wait out the trade war. You can sequester new production in China while you wait.

[WHN]

I think the problem is pricing.

There are still companies that cast engine blocks in the USA.

Enjoy.

[ModelA29]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

Terry searched the US from the Canadian border to Mexico, east coast to west. He was unable to find anybody it the US who can still pour an engine block.

There are plenty of foundries still in the US that can pour a sand cast engine block and companies that can machine them. The problem wasn't they couldn't but that they were not able to compete with the ChiComs on price. With tariffs we may get more Made in the USA stickers on stuff.

Here a a few foundries that can do the job.
Quaker City Castings: A foundry that uses sand casting to create complex metal parts
RMC Sand Casting Foundry: A foundry that uses green sand casting, pre-coated resin sand casting, and furan resin sand casting
Northfield Manufacturing: A foundry that specializes in low-volume production
Sioux City Foundry: A foundry that has been operating for over 140 years
Lemfco, Inc. A gray iron casting foundry in Illinois
Taylor Fenn: A foundry that works with over 100 different grades of iron and steel
Clinch River Casting, Inc. A foundry that manufactures low to medium-run iron castings

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by ModelA29

There are plenty of foundries still in the US that can pour a sand cast engine block and companies that can machine them. The problem wasn't they couldn't but that they were not able to compete with the ChiComs on price. With tariffs we may get more Made in the USA stickers on stuff.

Here a a few foundries that can do the job.
Quaker City Castings: A foundry that uses sand casting to create complex metal parts
RMC Sand Casting Foundry: A foundry that uses green sand casting, pre-coated resin sand casting, and furan resin sand casting
Northfield Manufacturing: A foundry that specializes in low-volume production
Sioux City Foundry: A foundry that has been operating for over 140 years
Lemfco, Inc. A gray iron casting foundry in Illinois
Taylor Fenn: A foundry that works with over 100 different grades of iron and steel
Clinch River Casting, Inc. A foundry that manufactures low to medium-run iron castings

I think it's a bit more nuanced than just price. I've heard Terry speak to this several times. A significant issue was the size of the run. I'm quite sure that if Terry had been able to dangle a (say) 10,000 unit order in front of the foundries he contacted then the answer would have been quite different. But the foundries he contacted wanted megabucks to prepare the cores, then high unit prices because the volume was low. Another issue is capacity - for small orders foundries typically fulfill them in between other larger orders, and as such availability is questionable. Remember that any purchased product has a price point. I'm not sure the Burtz engine would be as desirable at twice or three times the cost.

I won't go on here, but if Terry or John think it is valuable to chime in I'm sure they will. In my opinion, having heard the background on his sourcing of the cast parts straight from him, I'm confident that it is defensible.

[ModelA29]

Originally Posted by JayJay

I think it's a bit more nuanced than just price. A significant issue was the size of the run.

It always comes down to price. Companies will do one part or a million. There is a foundry in LA that will pour a few parts. The 1% uses them to produce parts to restore their million $+ cars.

Sand casting prices don't change much with volume. You create a new mold for each block. If you expend the dollars to create permanent molds the price comes down because you're saving the labor cost to make a new mold for each engine. They foundry doesn't care what they are pouring. It's based on pounds per hour they can pour into the molds. You can buy a fully machined ChiCom sand cast Chevy V8 block for $800 - https://sjzjialiya.en.made-in-china....d=1ija4nue2175


There are plenty of foundries still in the US that can pour a sand cast engine block and companies that can machine them. The problem wasn't they couldn't but that they were not able to compete with the ChiComs on price. With tariffs we may get more Made in the USA stickers on stuff.

Here a a few foundries that can do the job.
Quaker City Castings: A foundry that uses sand casting to create complex metal parts
RMC Sand Casting Foundry: A foundry that uses green sand casting, pre-coated resin sand casting, and furan resin sand casting
Northfield Manufacturing: A foundry that specializes in low-volume production
Sioux City Foundry: A foundry that has been operating for over 140 years
Lemfco, Inc. A gray iron casting foundry in Illinois
Taylor Fenn: A foundry that works with over 100 different grades of iron and steel
Clinch River Casting, Inc. A foundry that manufactures low to medium-run iron castings

[ronn]

and in the end- this is a drop in the bucket, compared to other items being produced around the world. we can still have our old motors rebuilt at a shop.


Bigger question I am asking?
Why cant these be cast in India? South America? and so on......... are we only reliant on china? We have become stupid.

[Bruce of MN]

One top feature to me is that the Chinese factory also makes large runs of blocks, etc. for Japanese and Korean auto makers, including machining, so modern quality process is standard for them. It is one stop shopping for Burtz and low probability of warranty issues. Good for us and good for Burtz.

[Brendan]

Originally Posted by Oldbluoval

Synchro
Sure makes one wonder about how the USA would put forth a war effort if necessary.
Order parts from an enemy? Yeah right
Delivery might be dang slow! Like when we’ve lost! We might not even get uniforms!
Crazy crazy

Michael Savage said that if we went to War we will be in big trouble , becouse we dont make hardly anything any more. Ford built Willow Run in no time at all, and figured out how to build B-24's

[katy]

Deleted

[Jeff/Illinois]

[QUOTE=ModelA29;2367364]It always comes down to price. Companies will do one part or a million. There is a foundry in LA that will pour a few parts. The 1% uses them to produce parts to restore their million $+ cars......
there are plenty of foundries still in the US that can pour a sand cast engine block and companies that can machine them. ....




YOU are absolutely right. A small foundry near us in a small farming town (population 750) has been in business since the War. The guys working there make a good living, they make parts for Deere and Cat and small runs of however many you want.


So the 'they will only do huge production runs' argument isn't necessarily true. Depends on how hard you work to seek out USA made. Snyders has a foundry in Ohio that casts a lot of Model A parts for them. I doubt they demand a run of 10,000 water pump castings before they go to work

[JayJay]

[QUOTE=Jeff/Illinois;2367494]

Originally Posted by ModelA29

Snyders has a foundry in Ohio that casts a lot of Model A parts for them. I doubt they demand a run of 10,000 water pump castings before they go to work

I have experience with small specialty foundries that make one- and two-off sand castings (for example, one I worked with was making repro windshield stanchions for XK-120 Jaguar roadsters - not much volume demand, I would guess). However, I suspect that an engine block with all its internal passageways is a bit more complicated than a water pump housing. I think I heard Terry say that there are 20-some molds that have to be used for the Model A engine block, and they need to be placed with thousandths-inch accuracy.

[Ernie Vitucci]

Just a short note...Terry worked for years and had about given up when he came upon the factory in China through one of his now partners...price, yes...QUALITY a must. America voted for Trump...He changes his mind daily...we'll just have to hang on and see what the hell actually happens...trust the actions...not the words...Ernie in Arizona

[johnneilson]

Casting the block is only a small part of the story

Terry has a engine manufacturing entity doing the work

All of the machining plus the other parts are done by one manufacturer

Just imagine the logistics of doing this job piece by piece

It would already be too costly to replicate

John

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by johnneilson

Casting the block is only a small part of the story

Terry has a engine manufacturing entity doing the work

All of the machining plus the other parts are done by one manufacturer

Just imagine the logistics of doing this job piece by piece

It would already be too costly to replicate

John

I agree with you, John. Having the casting and machining done in the same shop is the only way to go to reliably achieve the required accuracy, especially when that shop is capable of doing big runs for vehicle manufacturers all over the world. I have heard (but have no evidence to back it up) that many "Made in USA" cars have engines that come out of Chinese factories. I have posted before that the Chinese are very capable of producing high quality goods but it is clueless western buyers who go there looking for say, widgets for resale in their home countries. They have no idea what makes one widget better than another and can't pick the difference. Company accountants are worse and will pressure for the least cost. We all know that "You get what you pay for" so we get poor quality widgets, then blame the maker. Terry did his homework and went for a quality Chinese product.
I have always said that when you point a finger of blame at someone else, you have 3 other fingers pointing straight back at yourself. I think criticism of the Chinese here is unwarranted. We should look closer to home.