What am I in for? (Muti disc Clutch Woes)

[psimet]

I happened into a freshly rebuilt engine. Nice one from Antique Engine Rebuilding with their “Touring Package”. The club member who commissioned the work passed before he got a chance to install it.

My original engine had a cracked block that led me on a search for a new engine a few years back. So we got the engine pulled finally and the inside of the bell housing there is a lot of debris. Some “fresh” chips that could be off the ring gear on the flywheel. A chunk of metal is sitting in the bottom of the flywheel housing. Almost looks like bearing material but a club member said it could be one of the clutch fingers.




My car is a sept 28 Tudor. I had read somewhere that there’s a lot to change if I want to swap to the single plate clutch. I figured I would try and make what I have work.

Then tonight I was blasting the flywheel housing to check for crack and of course I found some.

With these two issues and knowing I can’t get repair parts for the clutch and the odds of finding a non-cracked flywheel housing for a multi-disc combined with this being a nice new engine (car has never been restored and is a single family survivor) I’m heavily thinking of doing the swap to the other clutch.

Thoughts on that?

If I go for it what all do I have to swap out? I think it’s the flywheel housing, clutch, flywheel, pedal(s), and what else? Starter? Throw out bearing?

[psimet]

Here are the cracks in the flywheel housing for reference.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Joe K]

The flywheel housings are the same between AR Multi-disk and the later single plate clutch.

At least I'm not aware of any "functional" differences. There may be AR "details" that make the housing identifiable to an AR (part numbers cast in?) But the multi-plate difference primarily occupy the clutch pack itself, the bell housing, and the flywheel.

$40 and a antique auto part flea market could set you up with a new uncracked flywheel housing. Possibly Ebay at lesser savings.

As to the "pieces" you're seeing - could come from any small pieces/teeth that have come loose.

The nice thing about the multi-disk is that there can be a number of "small" failures, and yet the clutch will work fine. Big thing is the condition of the flywheel grooves, and how much dust is packed in hanging up disks.

I would "break down" the clutch pak, clean everything, and see exactly where the fail was before making any decisions.

In breaking down, read carefully Victor Page's "Model A Ford, Construction, Operation, Repair" book which shows the original tools used to "deload" the spring loaded clutch pak. Clutch-pak literally is an "accident waiting to happen" with pent-up energy. A shop press or even all-thread/steel disks can be used to restrain and disassemble safely.

Good luck. Multi-disk is a "different animal," quite resilient, and actually highly thought of - until the dusting accumulates in the grooves.

My mind goes to the "rubber clutch" of the original 40Hp VW Bugs.

Best regards,
Joe K

[Jim Mason]

https://jmodela.coffeecup.com/clutch.html

[Tom Endy]

The multiple disk clutch was actually a very good clutch. However, by this time in its history, most are worn out. Especially the clutch housings and flywheels. Unless you are lucky enough to locate a complete assembly somebody took out of a car and stored away, it is best to convert to the single disk, plenty of good usable parts around.

Attached article if you want to take on rebuilding one.

https://www.santaanitaas.org/wp-cont...-Clutch_TE.pdf

Tom Endy

[nkaminar]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I am going to go with Tom Endy on this one.

[jb-ob]

psimet, Did you ever drive your Tudor with this transmission and how did it operate ?

- A functional multi-disc is a fine transmission, except too expensive to produce for a lowly Model A.

- It was installed for an entire year so parts aren't difficult to find IF you don't mind the 'hunt'. (Some prefer restoring their car with credit card & phone.)

-Most difficult item will be the fly wheel with respect to it's splines where the discs ride. Obviously you would like the best you can find BUT that won't stop you from driving your car.

- At idle they can produce a knocking sound like a loose rod inside an engine. Their clutch pack is rattling back & forth in the flywheel. Nothing is going to explode.

It's part of your original Tudor....or you can 're-write' history. Best.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by jb-ob

-Most difficult item will be the fly wheel with respect to it's splines where the discs ride.

I have seen report that someone has machined off the existing worn splines and replaced them with a "bolt on" flanged ring - splined on the inside.

This made in metal.

One wonders if this might be done using "computer printing." I recently bought a set of change gears for a Barnes No. 5 velocipede lathe made by "printing." They're plastic but PLENTY STRONG for that application.

I have an original AR flywheel with MOST EXCELLENT splines - seemingly the entire transmission/clutch/bell housing was set aside in the early 1930s after a failure of the A-7118 needle bearing.

AND, I have a gentleman who is a "Computer Printed" enthusiast. I'm not sure his "working field" is large enough to take in 8" diameter - but it might be. I'll have to ask him about his capability.

Joe K

[psimet]

Originally Posted by jb-ob

psimet, Did you ever drive your Tudor with this transmission and how did it operate ?

- A functional multi-disc is a fine transmission, except too expensive to produce for a lowly Model A.

- It was installed for an entire year so parts aren't difficult to find IF you don't mind the 'hunt'. (Some prefer restoring their car with credit card & phone.)

-Most difficult item will be the fly wheel with respect to it's splines where the discs ride. Obviously you would like the best you can find BUT that won't stop you from driving your car.

- At idle they can produce a knocking sound like a loose rod inside an engine. Their clutch pack is rattling back & forth in the flywheel. Nothing is going to explode.

It's part of your original Tudor....or you can 're-write' history. Best.

I have driven it but not super far. Around the block a bunch of times. To different parts of the neighborhood. It was finicky but seemed to drive fine. Stopped because I needed to find a solution for the engine block leak.

The flywheel is in good shape. I’ll get a picture later.

It did make a knocking sound that sounded like bottom engine knock.

Finding parts is going to be the problem as I have this nice engine and I need to get it in the car and broken in. They extended the warranty on it slightly but I’m coming up on it in about 6 months.

I do want to ask again though - if I switch what all do I need to. Swap? Our 100 yr old club member mentioned the bell housing as well. Does anyone have a list of everything I’d have to swap?

[Joe K]

You'll probably want a later transmission. The AR tranny is a little different where it mates with the bell-housing. (small hole/bearing retainer v. big hole)
Also the bell-housing. The AR housing is "close" at the bottom since there is not as much actual room needed for the clutch-pak.
Of course pedals will want to go with the later bell housing. ARs are small on the shaft.
The tranny to rear axle coupling may or may not be different. Original AR has the "split brake cross-shaft" which your car may or may not have (depending on it's conversion status) But do your homework. (Restorer Magazine Jan-Feb 2007 p. 14)
You'll need a flywheel certainly
You'll need a single plate clutch assembly including disk.
Your E-brake handle may be on the "Left." If so use your current transmission top. If not try to get a tranny top that matches your current link landing spot. (Two choices: 28-29 more left, 30-31 more right.)

I have bought most of what I list above at the Epping Antique Auto Flea Market for about $250 total. Ebay MAY have some options for the smaller parts. Shipping may be the deciding factor. Craigslist/Facebook Marketplace in your area may have some options.

I've seen a later transmission and bell housing (complete) sell for $50 on FBM.

Scrounging around is what it takes. Friends help. Try to buy "barn fresh" units but be prepared to go through them yourself, get an education, and buy parts only when necessary.

And by all means RETAIN your removed multi-disk parts. Good trading material possibly. It is possible to "grind flatten" scored disks, and re-line the clutch lining.

A very similar setup was used on 1950s combines and other farm equipment and even today these are being "reconditioned."

Joe K

[Bigsnapper43]

I've made this same swap on my November '28 Tudor. Trans gears less input shaft are innerchanble and usually in very good shape. I'm sure there are parts available close to you.

[psimet]

I have the split shaft brakes. Powerhouse generator. E brake is above the shift lever. Red steering wheel. I have most all AR stuff except the left lever and the drums/wheels.

Wheels in the photo below were borrowed to get it rolling. Planning on putting the 21” back on there.

I have a climb member who said, “get your list together as I probably have all of what you need when I cleared out a stash after another old club member passed.


Adding some more pictures here because I can.

[Keith True]

I'm going to change mine over to the single plate.I've tinkered on it for a while,but the bottom line is I just don't like the way they drive compared to the other A's.I wanted to keep the multi disc,just because it is the way the car came new.I have changed them over before,the split shaft brake system fits onto the later trans case.You may have to do a little carving on the floorboards around the pedals,the spacing for the later pedals is different.Trans top doesn't care.I believe Ford put out a set of instructions and parts list to do the changeover.Service bulletins maybe??? They were problematic to Ford from day one.Ford published a letter stating that the multi disc clutch,patterned after the Lincoln,wasn't performing in the A's because the Lincolns were driven by more professional drivers,as opposed to the A,that were driven by just anybody.

[Joe K]

Your "brake to front" is a 28-29 single plate clutch transmission top.

My AR tranny top has no landing place for an E-Lever - LH EBrake.

I expect you can use all that you have now on a single clutch plate type tranny. Big thing would be to be sure of "uneven holes v. even holes" on the clamshells. See Restorer Reference above for times/application/details of the up to five variations of clamshells.

I see Keith (above) has covered the same ground - and possibly better.

Fun project. Too bad for the timing/guarantee issue.

Joe K

[rotorwrench]

They also used the small shaft starter with the Able type starter drive. Ford made a replacement Bendix type but they are rare in the modern era. It's a more complicated conversion than some anticipate but plenty of them have been converted.

[cristeven]

Psimet - please don’t get discouraged by these folks. You’ll locate plenty of parts out there for the multidisc transmission. I was in your shoes when I started here and I got the same advice. I started trying to source a newer style unit. I learned that the entire transmission is different. As you start looking for parts you’ll locate both versions for sale.

[Dan/Kzo]

Should you choose to retain the multiple disc clutch setup, Fort Wayne Clutch not only rebuilds them, they keep a couple rebuilt assemblies on the shelf for immediate exchange.

[rotorwrench]

Originally Posted by Dan/Kzo

Should you choose to retain the multiple disc clutch setup, Fort Wayne Clutch not only rebuilds them, they keep a couple rebuilt assemblies on the shelf for immediate exchange.

Does Ft Wayne clutch just reline the plates or do they replace/restore the plates? There are the lined plates and there are the plain smooth steel plates and I haven't seen either of the plates in reproduction yet. The drum on the flywheel likes to wear out as well and there weren't replacement flywheels made. I have seen machined drums with the splines shaped in that can be made to fit to the flywheel but this is a lot of machine work. The other transmission and throw out parts can wear out too so that has to be considered as well. I previously brought up the starter difference so that also has to be considered. Any part on an antique car can be reproduced but in some cases the cost of that endeavor can get into the prohibitive range for most DIY folks.

While I can see encouragement for restoration being completely acceptable, I also can see the encouragement to go the least expensive route to be acceptable. I've heard many times that restoration to fine point judging can add a zero or two to the overall cost. If a person has the where with all to go that route, I encourage that. If they are a basic DIY guy that wants a nice daily driver then I would encourage to go the other way.

I see multi plate clutch parts on flea-pay now and then and I come to the conclusion that another model A has been converted. I don't often see the parts that wear out faster on flea-pay since there are likely some folks aggressively looking for that stuff.

[Dan/Kzo]

[QUOTE=rotorwrench;2365112]Does Ft Wayne clutch just reline the plates or do they replace/restore the plates?


The unit from Fort Wayne Clutch I installed in a club members A last month was top notch, I was impressed. One would need to talk with them about how they restore one. I mentioned them as a good source.

[rackops]

My somewhat uneducated thoughts... my 1928 Phaeton was converted from multi-disk to single disk when it was restored in the 60s. The fellow who restored it preferred the operation of the single disk and used the car as his daily driver, so the conversion makes sense.

I'm restoring the car to fine point and don't plan on driving it much, so having the multi-disk clutch in the car is important...and operationally not a huge deal. I have ended up with 15 multi-disk clutch packs (the angry pinecone, as I call them) but only a single flywheel (luckily, it's in good shape).

I say I'm rather "uneducated" because I understand how the multi-disk works and have a pile of parts now, but have never installed one, so that's still an adventure on the horizon for me.