Why is everyone out of chassis springs?

[Sunny the Model A]

Hello y'all, riddle me this. Why is everyone out of chassis springs except Eaton Detroit? they all say they have "USA made" springs so why are they all out of em? foundry shut down or what? Me and a friend both need springs, my Pickup has sad springs, and a friend has a coupe that needs em too. I know Eaton is still making springs but the parts houses being out of springs is just weird to me

[alexiskai]

My understanding is that no one is currently manufacturing springs using steel of the same thickness, springiness etc. of the original. Notice on Eaton's website that they advertise 8-leaf front springs, not the original 10. Presumably each leaf is slightly thicker. Model A suppliers may not want to carry springs that don't appear stock.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

No time to pen a Riddle for you, -but the need is definitely there. I spoke with a rep from Eaton spring several times about making the correct front springs, and even though they claim they build their springs off of original factory blueprints, their Model-A front springs do not match the print.

I then offered the correct prints, and they said it was the leaf spring thickness and the costs to manufacture that thickness that made it prohibitive. Nevermind that the rear springs they offer and claim to be correct are very near that thickness, -and if so, it would appear to me they already have the correct thickness to manufacture front springs. My takeaway from these conversations was that as long as they have no competition in Model-A spring manufacturing, then there is not a need to make a correct front spring. My guess is the only way to encourage them to manufacture one to OE specifications is one of the suppliers (Berts, Brattons, Snyders, et/al) places a large enough order (-like 150+ sets) here the need can be filled. Unfortunately I have no idea what the ROI would be for that many sets. Like others, I need several just for current projects inhouse, so I definitely feel your pain.

[WHN]

I feel the pain!

But! These cars are approaching one hundred years old. Just to be able to still get parts that allow owners to continue to drive our cars is amazing.

I am not saying we need to settle for something. I am saying there are cases when we might just be happy that there are parts available that allow us to keep our cars on the road.

Enjoy.

[nkaminar]

Sounds like it is time for another manufacturer to spring into action.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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Originally Posted by WHN

I feel the pain!

But! These cars are approaching one hundred years old. Just to be able to still get parts that allow owners to continue to drive our cars is amazing.

I am not saying we need to settle for something. I am saying there are cases when we might just be happy that there are parts available that allow us to keep our cars on the road.

Enjoy.

But here is the problem. There has been a mindset over the last decade or two where these cars have either not been restored properly, -or even maintenanced very well, ...and as such, the worth (-i.e.: prices) of these cars have fallen. From my vantage point of seeing/touring with other 100 year old cars, the value of other 100 year old non-Ford vehicles is significantly higher where the owner can justify spending something like $250 for a replacement front spring. It is the present day hobbyists that find it acceptable to substitute inferior parts (-both aesthetically and mechanically) on their car because in their words, -it is only a Driver and they don't plan on showing it.

Also, some are willing to MacGyver their car because they don't want to spend more on it than it is worth. To me, this is a huge disservice to fellow hobbyists and being a poor steward of the vehicle. Kinda like owning an animal that is tethered to a 4' chain in the backyard in which that animal must spend its entire life unsheltered in an 8' radius. Not much of a quality of life for that animal is it?? Kinda the same with the MacGyvered car.

[WHN]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

But here is the problem. There has been a mindset over the last decade or two where these cars have either not been restored properly, -or even maintenanced very well, ...and as such, the worth (-i.e.: prices) of these cars have fallen. From my vantage point of seeing/touring with other 100 year old cars, the value of other 100 year old non-Ford vehicles is significantly higher where the owner can justify spending something like $250 for a replacement front spring. It is the present day hobbyists that find it acceptable to substitute inferior parts (-both aesthetically and mechanically) on their car because in their words, -it is only a Driver and they don't plan on showing it.

Also, some are willing to MacGyver their car because they don't want to spend more on it than it is worth. To me, this is a huge disservice to fellow hobbyists and being a poor steward of the vehicle. Kinda like owning an animal that is tethered to a 4' chain in the backyard in which that animal must spend its entire life unsheltered in an 8' radius. Not much of a quality of life for that animal is it?? Kinda the same with the MacGyvered car.

Brent:

I think you and I are on the same page. I fully agree.

Cost of something needed for our Model A’s has never been the deciding factor on whether it was repaired.

Enjoy

[ModelA29]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Sounds like it is time for another manufacturer to spring into action.

Hello China.......
I reality 8 v 10 leafs is irrelevant as long as the length and weight carrying ability is the same. Yes you won't want to use one for a fine point car - but those don't get driven to the point ride quality matters.
The suppliers are not out of stock if Eaton has them in stock. They just choose not to have money invested in stocking springs that are probably a real slow mover in the retail market.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

From my vantage point of seeing/touring with other 100 year old cars, the value of other 100 year old non-Ford vehicles is significantly higher where the owner can justify spending something like $250 for a replacement front spring. It is the present day hobbyists that find it acceptable to substitute inferior parts (-both aesthetically and mechanically) on their car because in their words, -it is only a Driver and they don't plan on showing it.

It's hard to do the counterfactual here because very few of those cars have the reproduction part ecosystem the Model A has. An acquaintance of mine owns a 1902 Rambler – 4HP, 1 cyl. When the counterweight came off the crank and tore the engine block apart, he welded all the pieces back together and fabricated a new counterweight. Why? Obviously because he has the skill set and he enjoys it, but also because there is no alternative. No one sells repro '02 Rambler crankshafts and lightly used engine blocks.

From a preservation point of view, the Model A is a victim of its own success and particularly the view in the hobbyist community that "keeping them on the road" is the paramount goal. I don't think that same pressure to get the vehicle mobile – by any means available – exists for other antique collectors.

[Jeff/Illinois]

I notice Model A's are getting a bit more difficult with each passing year.


I hate to say it but I may have to throw in the Model A towel soon,,,not an easy decision because I sure like the little buggers and enjoy them This is not just because of the continuing parts hassle but I had some health issues these last months I can barely get in and out of them anymore. Once I get in I can't work my leg very well to work the clutch. Forget getting down on the floor anymore the knee they just swapped prevents that,,,plus the hip they said I need now....



I just turned 70 in August, that's the way it is....


We have a '69 Mach 1 I can drive no problem, and the parts quality is excellent and very available for these cars. Parts right down to factory specs. Ford still casting engine blocks for them you can buy thru the Ford Motorsport program over the Parts Counter at your dealership. Unless you get all Roush racing crazy and stay pretty much stock they are cheaper than even a Burtz block for a Model A Ford.


Everytime I walk out to the garage to get the Model A ready to sell I feel half sick, real hard to do it. I guess they are such a small car I can just shove it into the corner of the garage and forget about it! They don't bring very big money anyway from what I have been seeing.


What does all of THIS have to do with Sunny's original post? Kinda not much but then yeah kinda somewhat. Apologies if I got this thread heading the wrong way I didn't mean to......

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

It's hard to do the counterfactual here because very few of those cars have the reproduction part ecosystem the Model A has. An acquaintance of mine owns a 1902 Rambler – 4HP, 1 cyl. When the counterweight came off the crank and tore the engine block apart, he welded all the pieces back together and fabricated a new counterweight. Why? Obviously because he has the skill set and he enjoys it, but also because there is no alternative. No one sells repro '02 Rambler crankshafts and lightly used engine blocks.

From a preservation point of view, the Model A is a victim of its own success and particularly the view in the hobbyist community that "keeping them on the road" is the paramount goal. I don't think that same pressure to get the vehicle mobile – by any means available – exists for other antique collectors.

When Bob & Jen got that car back into the States, he called me asking how I would repair it. We have spoken many times regarding that project, -amongst others.

Yeah, it does make us wonder if reproduction parts were not so readily available, would forcing the Model-A hobbyist to actually restore in lieu of replace make for a better car??

[ModelA29]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

I hate to say it but I may have to throw in the Model A towel soon,,,

I just turned 70 in August, that's the way it is....

We have a '69 Mach 1 I can drive no problem,

I just hit 74 and bought our A just over 2 years ago - why? Bad back I wanted something lighter/simpler to tinker with. Still have our 32V 1998 SVT Cobra and my 650 hp GT1 Mustang - That one's going to need to go since getting in around the cage is tough.
The early 32V Mustang stuff is getting harder to get but yes there are lots of early quality Mustang parts. I've been amazed at the poor quality of replacement A parts - The majority of replacement parts I've purchased all needed a little work to get it to fit/work correctly.

[doa44green]

Re arc an original.

[Sunny the Model A]

Originally Posted by ModelA29

I just hit 74 and bought our A just over 2 years ago - why? Bad back I wanted something lighter/simpler to tinker with. Still have our 32V 1998 SVT Cobra and my 650 hp GT1 Mustang - That one's going to need to go since getting in around the cage is tough.
The early 32V Mustang stuff is getting harder to get but yes there are lots of early quality Mustang parts. I've been amazed at the poor quality of replacement A parts - The majority of replacement parts I've purchased all needed a little work to get it to fit/work correctly.

You got that right, I think half the reason is that most manufacturers don't know or care the square root of jack (bleep) about A's and the quality of the original parts.

[jak]

deleted

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by ModelA29

I just hit 74 and bought our A just over 2 years ago - why? Bad back I wanted something lighter/simpler to tinker with. Still have our 32V 1998 SVT Cobra and my 650 hp GT1 Mustang - That one's going to need to go since getting in around the cage is tough.
The early 32V Mustang stuff is getting harder to get but yes there are lots of early quality Mustang parts. I've been amazed at the poor quality of replacement A parts - The majority of replacement parts I've purchased all needed a little work to get it to fit/work correctly.

I hear ya. Not to take away from the original post I guess to sum up my thoughts, why can't they make GOOD Model A Ford parts? They do for the early generation Mustangs? It would be a lot simpler.

Maybe it is economy of scale, there are just a lot more early Ford Mustangs being restored

You can buy a reproduction Mustang front fender prep it paint it bolt it on and go. Try doing THAT with a reproduction Model A fender! You'll have as much or more money in the thing trying to get it to fit!

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

I hear ya. Not to take away from the original post I guess to sum up my thoughts, why can't they make GOOD Model A Ford parts? They do for the early generation Mustangs? It would be a lot simpler.

Maybe it is economy of scale, there are just a lot more early Ford Mustangs being restored

You can buy a reproduction Mustang front fender prep it paint it bolt it on and go. Try doing THAT with a reproduction Model A fender! You'll have as much or more money in the thing trying to get it to fit!

It is the ROI. It is the cost of creating exacting details. Since you mentioned the fender, Bob's dies are worn beyond repairable. Bob is over 85 years old now. I hope he lives well past 100 years old, but the reality is the ROI for Bob to make new dies will never be there. So who else is willing to step up? I have no idea costs to manufacture dies, but I could see it costing over a quarter of a million dollars to make all the dies needed to stamp both front fenders. Think about this. If you have $125k in the left side dies, with a life expectancy of those dies stamping 1,000 fenders before they need to be reworked, then the manufacturer would need to add $125.00 to the cost of each fender just to break even, -not counting the cost of that money over the 10-20 years it will take to sell that many fenders. Stamping a Mustang fender is likely easier to make than stamping a Model-A fender.

[bobbader]

I've been in the Model A parts and component rebuilding/restoration business for 46 years. From day one, customers have compared current retail prices to "what I used to pay for parts from JC Whitney", etc. Many have had no problem springing for Whitewall Tires, LeBarron Bonney interiors, etc. but don't want to hear about how much it costs to properly rebuild a front end and their mechanical brake system. The 1902 Rambler story told elsewhere here is a good analogy. Nobody makes those parts because there is not enough demand. There are several manufacturers who make quality Model A parts and still more who will make "just OK Model A parts" because many people will be only too happy to buy them and think they got a deal. Then, there's the assumption that if someone can make a "so-so" part for $10, then someone should be able to make that same part 100% correct for $12. The frame of reference always seems to be how much the cheaper (less than good) part costs. Re-read Brent's explanation about fenders to get the other side of the story.

[Bob Bidonde]

Many of the wonderful assortment of reproduction parts available to us have gone or are going away because of reduced demand and increased costs to manufacture. The reproduction parts market is retrograding back to what is was near its infancy. I do believe there are not enough salvageable Model A's left to bring back the demand for the plethora of restoration parts we enjoyed just 20 years ago. What will continue in my opinion are the common parts we need to maintain our Model A's such as ignition, tires, tubes, water pumps, fan belts, gaskets, etc.

The emphasis for restorers today is salvaging original parts, even those in horrible condition. We are blessed to have craftsmen using modern tools & techniques that can make miracles out of bent, cranked and corroded metal.

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

Many of the wonderful assortment of reproduction parts available to us have gone or are going away because of reduced demand and increased costs to manufacture. The reproduction parts market is retrograding back to what is was near its infancy. I do believe there are not enough salvageable Model A's left to bring back the demand for the plethora of restoration parts we enjoyed just 20 years ago. What will continue in my opinion are the common parts we need to maintain our Model A's such as ignition, tires, tubes, water pumps, fan belts, gaskets, etc.

The emphasis for restorers today is salvaging original parts, even those in horrible condition. We are blessed to have craftsmen using modern tools & techniques that can make miracles out of bent, cranked and corroded metal.

I think that demand is definitely down from when I got into this hobby in the late 60s, but I think it’s as much demographics as it is supply of restorable Model As. I think if we look around at club meetings or tours we’ll see that a substantial number of us are at the more mature phase of life, whereas years ago it was the same folks, but we were a lot younger. With age I think comes less willingness to embark upon a full resto project. I know that the car I’m doing now is very likely the last one I’ll restore. If I get another one it will be already restored or an original driver.

When I got started maybe half or better of the club members were restoring cars, now in our club of over 100 member families maybe a half dozen are currently restoring cars. It’s an evolution of the hobby. And I’m not seeing a huge influx of younger folks (including, regrettably, my own kids), too much competition for limited time.