Burtzs block

[fredski53]

Question, if I install a Burtz block in my Model A and the block looks stock on the outside, can I enter the car in fine points judging?

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by fredski53

Question, if I install a Burtz block in my Model A and the block looks stock on the outside, can I enter the car in fine points judging?

Make sure you stamp your serial number on it correctly using the correct stamps and don't tell anybody.

[JayJay]

From what I understand, all of the Burtz products are intended to look exactly original on the outside. This includes the block, the head, and the soon-to-come flywheel housing. I hear that Terry is also working on an oil pump, but that obviously is not visible to the outside.

[Bob C]

It's in the Builders Guide.

15) Detailing the New Engine for Judging
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-7b...IZCnAVVcW/view

[Bruce of MN]

Originally Posted by Bob C

It's in the Builders Guide.

15) Detailing the New Engine for Judging
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-7b...IZCnAVVcW/view

Page 48

[nkaminar]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

There is a depression (cavity) at the rear of the engine for the plug that screws into the end of the oil gallery. This depression is not present on the stock engine. It can be filled in with something like JB Weld, textured to look like cast iron, and then painted.

[Jim Brierley]

Not sure but I think the oil supply line is on the outside, so may look different???

[nkaminar]

Oil supply can be rigged internally or externally. If externally it can go through a full flow filter. A pressure gauge can be used either way. If internal a pressure relieve valve can be installed on the pump.

[JayJay]

As many times as I've looked at the Builders Guide, I've never focused on that section on detailing for fine points judging because I figured it would not apply to me. Very interesting reading, and an example of the thoughtfulness that has gone into the entire engine project.

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

Martin Larsen entered a fine point car at the MAFCA National Convention in Kerrville, Texas with a New Engine detailed per the "Builders Guide", and won an "Award of Excellence". This car did not have an oil filter or pressure gauge, so there was no difference in exterior appearance and no deduction for having the New Engine.

Another car with the New Engine was entered at another meet for fine point judging but only received 50% points because the judges knew about the New Engine.

If you are building a points car, do not brag about having the New Engine, brake and clutch pedal heads with deep grooves, Bakelite distributor bodies with one notch and steel cadmium-plated electrodes, 3X spark bases with the correct external knurl without bands, any of the aluminum top moldings used on closed cars, and the Nitrile front and rear main bearing seals because I manufacture these parts.

For judging purposes, don't let anyone know you have a New Engine, and present your points car to the judges without comment. Let the judges determine if the engine is new, if the paint is new, if the upholstery is new, if the top is new, if the tires are new, and if the car has reproduction parts.

[fredski53]

Well, if I was to enter the car with the Burtz engine and didn’t tell anyone and the car scored high, wouldn’t that be “cheating “? Doesn’t seem right to me to fool the judges with a non-original engine just because on the outside it looks like the real deal. Just saying.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by fredski53

Well, if I was to enter the car with the Burtz engine and didn’t tell anyone and the car scored high, wouldn’t that be “cheating “? Doesn’t seem right to me to fool the judges with a non-original engine just because on the outside it looks like the real deal. Just saying.

I see it differently. While there are thousands of original Model A engines about, I don't see it as cheating. The owner is perfectly able to rebuild a three main bearing engine and enter that. How is either engine original once the "original" is rebuilt?

[dave in australia]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

I see it differently. While there are thousands of original Model A engines about, I don't see it as cheating. The owner is perfectly able to rebuild a three main bearing engine and enter that. How is either engine original once the "original" is rebuilt?

Or using NORS parts instead of restoring parts originally fitted. Did you use an original clutch disc, did you replace the clutch lining, did you fit a new clutch disc. At what point do we say it is a restored part, or a replaced part. This has to be the hardest part for both judges and restorers. There is a few areas where it is hard to restore over replacing. Did you restore the paint, or replace the paint to original standards using 1920's techniques, did you restore the plating or have the part replated. Upholstery, and the list goes on. Is replacing an engine block, that is the same outward appearance as the original, any different to replacing the upholstery with the same outward appearance, but is made with modern fabrics?

[Ruth]

Originally Posted by fredski53

Well, if I was to enter the car with the Burtz engine and didn’t tell anyone and the car scored high, wouldn’t that be “cheating “? Doesn’t seem right to me to fool the judges with a non-original engine just because on the outside it looks like the real deal. Just saying.

Hard question. If I were one who went to the trouble and expense to source a “correct” engine and someone with a “faux” engine beat me out, I think I would be upset. Or is that just me? I have never entered points competition as I am not interested in that side of owning a Model A.

[larrys40]

Originally Posted by fredski53

Well, if I was to enter the car with the Burtz engine and didn’t tell anyone and the car scored high, wouldn’t that be “cheating “? Doesn’t seem right to me to fool the judges with a non-original engine just because on the outside it looks like the real deal. Just saying.

Actually years ago Roger Kaufman who mentored me on my first fine pint judging volunteer experience told me it that if using repro parts that “fooling the judges “ is just fine and making sure the prts were accurate enough to pass for an original parts as produced . The reality is that none of these cars would be what they are today rebuilt mechanically or cosmetically without reproctiom parts. They can be restored fully with original parts but availability and restoration wise would be enormously difficult.

The details are what counts. I’ve heard of the fine point Burtz block scoring and think that it’s incredible that the engine is so well done that once a few details are refined rhqt it is that good. Kudos to Terry Burtz !
Whatever your decision is to use the new block or not we are blessed with options that make these cars more driveable today and restorable ( to multiple standards ) than what would be possible otherwise.
Be thankful for the resources we have and those that produce them so we have them available to us.
Larry Shepard

[Gene F]

Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif

Martin Larsen entered a fine point car at the MAFCA National Convention in Kerrville, Texas with a New Engine detailed per the "Builders Guide", and won an "Award of Excellence". This car did not have an oil filter or pressure gauge, so there was no difference in exterior appearance and no deduction for having the New Engine.

Another car with the New Engine was entered at another meet for fine point judging but only received 50% points because the judges knew about the New Engine.

If you are building a points car, do not brag about having the New Engine, brake and clutch pedal heads with deep grooves, Bakelite distributor bodies with one notch and steel cadmium-plated electrodes, 3X spark bases with the correct external knurl without bands, any of the aluminum top moldings used on closed cars, and the Nitrile front and rear main bearing seals because I manufacture these parts.

For judging purposes, don't let anyone know you have a New Engine, and present your points car to the judges without comment. Let the judges determine if the engine is new, if the paint is new, if the upholstery is new, if the top is new, if the tires are new, and if the car has reproduction parts.

Seems like the judges have "sour grapes". That is like marking the car down for being correct, but useful. Jealousy I guess.

[P.S.]

I am the current MAFCA liaison to the Judging Standards committee. Here you go-

If the judges cannot tell the part from an original part, it receives full points. That includes texture and finish. If the judge can tell the part is reproduction, it receives a deduction (this can be arbitrary). If the part is a correct Model A part but incorrect for the month/year, it receives a deduction. If the part is clearly not a Model A part, that part receives zero points.

Terry's advice above is good advice. However, some people on the Judging Standards Committee are now discussing the differences between an original Ford engine block and a Burtz block so that it can be identified as a "reproduction part". If it is identified as such, it will likely receive a deduction or possibly zero points, the same way a B block in a Model A would, at the discretion of the Chief Judge.

Hope that helps.

[ModelA29]

Originally Posted by P.S.

..... some people on the Judging Standards Committee are now discussing the differences between an original Ford engine block and a Burtz block so that it can be identified as a "reproduction part". If it is identified as such, it will likely receive a deduction or possibly zero points, the same way a B block in a Model A would, at the discretion of the Chief Judge.

That is the way it should be. I see the Burtz block as a "peace of mind" addition for someone wanting to drive their cars great distances from home at freeway speeds - and of no use for the enjoyment of a Model A as it was designed.
I'd argue that the Burtz block is not a reproduction part because it is not a replica of the original part. It is as much a "reproduction" part as the Donovan engine was. https://www.modelaparts.net/hiperf.html/donovansem.html

[Jeff/Illinois]

I'm ALL for Mr. Burtz' engine receiving full points in competition.

I mean, for crying out loud

Not allowing such is akin to a clique of Model A owners trying to deduct points off of another's car, to promote themselves.

I say put it to a vote and let the MAFCA and MARC community as well as non club Model A owners have a say which way this one goes! Thank God for somebody like Terry B. trying to move the hobby forward!
No need to throw up road blocks.

[P.S.]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

I'm ALL for Mr. Burtz' engine receiving full points in competition.

I mean, for crying out loud

Not allowing such is akin to a clique of Model A owners trying to deduct points off of another's car, to promote themselves.

I say put it to a vote and let the MAFCA and MARC community as well as non club Model A owners have a say which way this one goes! Thank God for somebody like Terry B. trying to move the hobby forward!
No need to throw up road blocks.

Hi Jeff,

Understand your enthusiasm. At issue here is authenticity as it relates to fine point (blue ribbon) judging. Fredski53 asked, "Question, if I install a Burtz block in my Model A and the block looks stock on the outside, can I enter the car in fine points judging?" Terry Burtz and I helped answered his question.

Whether or not a reproduction part should or should not be "allowed" is up to the committee. For example, the committee decided a long time ago to overlook (no deduction) certain modifications, like a safety fuse in the electrical circuit. If you would like to join the committee and help write the rules, that would be excellent! There is a pathway to doing so.

For the record, there are different classes of Model A judging. The blue ribbon class is for the cars that look exactly like they did when they left the factory, down to the finest detail. If that isn't your thing, check out the Modified or Touring classes of judging. If none of that is your thing, there's always Restorer's Class where cars are "evaluated" instead of judged.

However, it sounds to me like you probably don't want that either, and that's fine! Judging cars isn't for everyone, and being judged isn't for ever car. Simply don't enter you or your car and enjoy all the other things the hobby provides.