Comprehesive howto for brakes?

[freak]

1930. My brakes are very weak. I tried to adjust them with the service manual and I still get very weak brakes. I have watched Paul Shinn's adjustment video and I think I'll run out of rod before I get them tight enough. Surely because of inexperience with these mechanical brakes. I don't know what to look for as far as worn components. Not sure the arms on the backing plate are adjusted. Can they be adjusted? Maybe drums are warped? Really need to get these working better but don't know where to start. Seems like starting out by adjusting rods is not good unless everything else is adjusted. Need help!

[nkaminar]

Others will chime in and help. Here is my input.

Ford adjusted the lengths of the rods at the factory and advised in the service bulletins that they were not to be changed in length by the dealer or owner. If needed they could be adjusted to a specific length by then not touched again. This is contrary to a lot of instructions found on the web and other places. All brake adjustments were to be made by the brake adjusters.

I have checked the length of my rods to provide the correct angle of the levers, for instance 15 degrees forward at the front, and then not touch the lengths.

Ford advised to turn the adjusters in until the wheels start to drag and then turn them one notch out.

Check the free movement of all the brake parts. The shafts for the brake arms should turn freely and not be excessively loose in the bushings. Grease helps.

The shoes should move out easily when the brake lever is moved. Check this with the drums removed. If there is binding, correct that.

Check the condition of all the parts. The wedges in the front should be in good condition. Check that there is adequate lining on the brake shoes. Check the condition of the drums. If they are stamped steel, replace with cast iron. Check the fit of the shoes in the drums. They should make full contact.

Check that the shoes are centered. There are tools available to check this that come with instructions.

If the shoe linings are glazed, take some 80 grit sandpaper and remove the glaze.

Good luck with your project and be sure to report back with you success.

[whirnot]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Others will chime in and help. Here is my input.

Ford adjusted the lengths of the rods at the factory and advised in the service bulletins that they were not to be changed in length by the dealer or owner. If needed they could be adjusted to a specific length by then not touched again. This is contrary to a lot of instructions found on the web and other places. All brake adjustments were to be made by the brake adjusters.

I have checked the length of my rods to provide the correct angle of the levers, for instance 15 degrees forward at the front, and then not touch the lengths.

Ford advised to turn the adjusters in until the wheels start to drag and then turn them one notch out. .

And that's why you should not take your instruction from someone on you tube.

[freak]

Originally Posted by whirnot

And that's why you should not take your instruction from someone on you tube.

I was under the impression that Paul Shinn's video was the go to for brake adjustment.

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by freak

I was under the impression that Paul Shinn's video was the go to for brake adjustment.

Always good to get a second opinion. There are a lot af variables in the brake system.

[whirnot]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by freak

I was under the impression that Paul Shinn's video was the go to for brake adjustment.

Personally I would not follow his videos for anything. I have watched a few and there was glaring misinformation in every one. He is selling advertising. Not promoting good repairs.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by whirnot

I have watched a few and there was glaring misinformation in every one.

I think this would be a more powerful critique if you could get two guys on this board to agree about anything. Even the restoration shop owners I've talked to have poor opinions of each other's practices. Just saying "this guy says things that are wrong" doesn't carry much weight for me.

[P.S.]

Originally Posted by whirnot

Personally I would not follow his videos for anything. I have watched a few and there was glaring misinformation in every one. He is selling advertising. Not promoting good repairs.

Would you care to elaborate? "Every one"? Not sure what set you off or triggered so much hate, but a blanket statement like that about someone trying to be of help to Model A owners deserves a bit of explanation.


I don't know why there is so much hate here for my videos, but for those of you who wonder why I seldom come here or participate on FordBarn, now you know.


Paul

[freak]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Others will chime in and help. Here is my input.

Ford adjusted the lengths of the rods at the factory and advised in the service bulletins that they were not to be changed in length by the dealer or owner. If needed they could be adjusted to a specific length by then not touched again. This is contrary to a lot of instructions found on the web and other places. All brake adjustments were to be made by the brake adjusters.

I have checked the length of my rods to provide the correct angle of the levers, for instance 15 degrees forward at the front, and then not touch the lengths.

Don't you have to set the 15 with the pill first?

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Ford advised to turn the adjusters in until the wheels start to drag and then turn them one notch out.

I was pretty sure the service manual said turn in to drag then back out 2-3 clicks.

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Check the free movement of all the brake parts. The shafts for the brake arms should turn freely and not be excessively loose in the bushings. Grease helps.

The shoes should move out easily when the brake lever is moved. Check this with the drums removed. If there is binding, correct that.

Check the condition of all the parts. The wedges in the front should be in good condition. Check that there is adequate lining on the brake shoes. Check the condition of the drums. If they are stamped steel, replace with cast iron. Check the fit of the shoes in the drums. They should make full contact.

Check that the shoes are centered. There are tools available to check this that come with instructions.

If the shoe linings are glazed, take some 80 grit sandpaper and remove the glaze.

Good luck with your project and be sure to report back with you success.

Thanks I'll be checking everything more.

[P.S.]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Others will chime in and help. Here is my input.

Ford adjusted the lengths of the rods at the factory and advised in the service bulletins that they were not to be changed in length by the dealer or owner. If needed they could be adjusted to a specific length by then not touched again. This is contrary to a lot of instructions found on the web and other places. All brake adjustments were to be made by the brake adjusters.

Assuming your Model A is 100% factory fresh original, then that is correct. However, as others have pointed out, if any one component or more in the brake system has any wear (like the actuators for example), then you can either replace them, or adjust the rods to compensate.

The video I made on brakes was done on a car with a recently replaced brake system. Since every component was replaced, mostly using reproduction parts, brake rods must be adjusted to equalize the braking force to each wheel.

As mentioned in the video, once the rods are set, you do not touch them again until another component in the system is replaced. Brake pad wear is adjusted out solely with the adjusters.

Let the "experts" say what they want. It's your car and your safety.

[zzlegend]

Originally Posted by P.S.

Assuming your Model A is 100% factory fresh original, then that is correct. However, as others have pointed out, if any one component or more in the brake system has any wear (like the actuators for example), then you can either replace them, or adjust the rods to compensate.

The video I made on brakes was done on a car with a recently replaced brake system. Since every component was replaced, mostly using reproduction parts, brake rods must be adjusted to equalize the braking force to each wheel.

As mentioned in the video, once the rods are set, you do not touch them again until another component in the system is replaced. Brake pad wear is adjusted out solely with the adjusters.

Let the "experts" say what they want. It's your car and your safety.

Well said. Thanks Paul.

[700rpm]

The Service Bulletins are good for learning what was important to know when the Model A was new. They are not a guide for how to restore a 90 yr-old vehicle. That is not to say they should not be consulted during restoration or maintenance, because specs and tolerances and such are still relevant. But they should be only one book in a library of restoration references, including MAFCA and MARC publications and private books like Les Andrews’s series. Also, if one is new to the Model A it is wise to join a local club, where years of experience and assistance are available that can help you through the arcane and antique peculiarities of making these exceptional machines work properly, even after nearly a century on the road.

[alexiskai]

I think P.S.'s procedure is an attempt to get decent brake performance out of cars with a wide range of actual brake components without taking the brakes apart. Adjusting the rod lengths compensates for the different wear levels on the individual brakes. The point is to equalize the braking force from each wheel and roughly calibrate it. In contrast, the official procedure – such as the directive to set the rod lengths so they align with the levers at 15° forward – is designed to maximize the braking force by optimizing the physics.

The official procedure assumes that your brake shoes, operating wedges, levers, etc., are all within official tolerances. Shinn's procedure is designed to be used at club events with random cars showing up. You can't stop and replace any parts at these events, you're just trying to get the best performance possible under the circumstances. It's a fine procedure for that scenario, but I agree that I wouldn't use it when overhauling my own brakes in my own garage.

[freak]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

I think P.S.'s procedure is an attempt to get decent brake performance out of cars with a wide range of actual brake components without taking the brakes apart. Adjusting the rod lengths compensates for the different wear levels on the individual brakes. The point is to equalize the braking force from each wheel and roughly calibrate it. In contrast, the official procedure – such as the directive to set the rod lengths so they align with the levers at 15° forward – is designed to maximize the braking force by optimizing the physics.

The official procedure assumes that your brake shoes, operating wedges, levers, etc., are all within official tolerances. Shinn's procedure is designed to be used at club events with random cars showing up. You can't stop and replace any parts at these events, you're just trying to get the best performance possible under the circumstances. It's a fine procedure for that scenario, but I agree that I wouldn't use it when overhauling my own brakes in my own garage.

What exactly is the 15° measured from? Just with the slack taken out of the lever? Hold it backward all the way without exerting any real force? Then it should be at 15°? And furmore... to get to 15 is the only adjustment "the pill"?

[nkaminar]

Freak,

To answer your question, after setting my rods for 15 degrees lever position, I had to add a spacer (pill) to be able to adjust the brakes.

[Bob Bidonde]

Do not mess around with your brakes if know not how they work and how to restore them. Take your Model "A" to a knowledgeable club member or restoration shop and have the brakes done right and safe.
All of the above advice is well intended, but unless you have knowledge and experience, the advice is like a foreign language - strange!

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

Do not mess around with your brakes if know not how they work and how to restore them. Take your Model "A" to a knowledgeable club member or restoration shop and have the brakes done right and safe. All of the above advice is well intended, but unless you have knowledge and experience, the advice is like a foreign language - strange!

One thing that's nice about brakes is you can do it through the mail. The rears in particular are hard for a novice to rebuild. I sent those to Randy G. I did my own fronts, but I sent them off to be arced.

[freak]

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

Do not mess around with your brakes if know not how they work and how to restore them. Take your Model "A" to a knowledgeable club member or restoration shop and have the brakes done right and safe.
All of the above advice is well intended, but unless you have knowledge and experience, the advice is like a foreign language - strange!

I've done many a brake job. Just not on my A. I'm quite an experienced mechanic but there's always something you haven't seen. I'm confident I'll get it working correctly.

[McMimmcs]

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

Do not mess around with your brakes if know not how they work and how to restore them. Take your Model "A" to a knowledgeable club member or restoration shop and have the brakes done right and safe.
All of the above advice is well intended, but unless you have knowledge and experience, the advice is like a foreign language - strange!

This is very sound advice. I couldn’t agree more! Wayne

[Y-Blockhead]

One of the biggest improvements I made to my brakes after checking and replacing any worn parts and shoes and adjusting was to replace the steel drums with cast iron drums.

Most 90 yo steel drums have been turned one too many times (even states in the Service Bulletins NOT to turn them) which is one of the causes of brake fade.