The Ford Barn

Gold Digger · 06-02-2014, 03:58 PM

As some of you already know I drive a sixty mile trip every Sunday. Well some of the trip is going up and down 8% mountain grades. For some reason I have always had trying to go faster on my mind and never retarded the spark while going down these grades. I always slow down and shift down to first gear as two of these declines are almost a mile long. Yesterday I just moved the spark up all the way and I could feel an enormous difference in the engine holding back. I've been driving model A's since 1958 and never tried or heard anyone comment on this. Is this something everyone knew but me and does this do any kind of harm to the engine?

modelAtony · 06-02-2014, 04:29 PM

JUST REMEMBER THE RULE OF THUMB what ever gear you go up in . come down the other side in . ( or lower ) and there at your speed you will be running is where you need the spark. have fun modelAtony tony white Lafayette, LA

Mike V. Florida · 06-02-2014, 04:32 PM

It has been mentioned here before, not often but it has.

Dumb would be knowing about it and not doing it. Your actions all these these years were not dumb at all!

Guess the saying about old dogs is not true after all.

tbirdtbird · 06-02-2014, 05:01 PM

I am not sure how good an idea this is. You would retard the spark some under severe load going uphill.
But full retard going down is making the motor run very late and prone to overheating. It is holding the car back because it is so retarded. But that ain't necessarily better.

If you must I would not fully retard it

Fred · 06-02-2014, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

I am not sure how good an idea this is. You would retard the spark some under severe load going uphill.
But full retard going down is making the motor run very late and prone to overheating. It is holding the car back because it is so retarded. But that ain't necessarily better.

If you must I would not fully retard it

It will NOT over heat !!..

J Franklin · 06-02-2014, 06:24 PM

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I doubt there would be much combustion heat going down hill with retarded ignition.

BILL WILLIAMSON · 06-02-2014, 07:40 PM

You should name your spark lever, "JAKE"! as in, "JAKE BRAKE"---Since it helps hold 'er back, thet's a GOOD thing!! It WON'T cause overheating, the engine's jist LAFFIN' & havin' FUN!---Bill W.

steve s · 06-02-2014, 09:25 PM

It may not cause overheating, but I agree with tbirdtbird that full retard going down hill is probably not good practice. The throttle is closed, there's very little fuel/air charge in the chambers, compression will be very low--normally conditions under which you want spark advance.

Do you notice any difference in backfiring?

dumb person · 06-02-2014, 09:58 PM

i heard it helps but i thought it would bur my exhaust valves.

tbirdtbird · 06-02-2014, 10:05 PM

"It will NOT over heat !!"

This statement needs to be backed up with engineering data.
The engine will NOT be at idle since the downward incline will impart torque and RPM to the crank
There is no precedent for this or capability for this in any other automotive situation.

J Franklin · 06-02-2014, 10:41 PM

It will not overheat! the throttle is closed going downhill. It is fire that heats an engine.

Purdy Swoft · 06-02-2014, 10:43 PM

Retarding the spark going down hill is no advantage at all. It won't cause overheating but will cause popping. As a kid I would rev the engine and retard the spark to cause backfire or retard the spark to make it pop while decellerating ,going down hill. It had a straight stack back then and still does now. now.

Mike V. Florida · 06-02-2014, 10:57 PM

Let me see,

One mile downward slope
Driver wants to go slow, what is slow? Lets say 30mph.
Driver retards the spark at the very top of the hill and advances it again 1 mile later.
Auto has 30MPH air running through the radiator.
One mile at 30 mph is two minutes

The car will over heat during the two minutes?

tbirdtbird · 06-02-2014, 11:51 PM

well well well....
as I have stated we need engineering data.

1 mile may not be much of a test.
But what else is going on with this contrived condition:
1. slow revving engine is also not turning water pump very fast, 30 mph air at radiator or not.
2. There will be no internal cooling effect from intake air entering the chamber via the intake valves.
3. It is well documented that a late motor will run hot. Maybe not in 1 mile.
Anyone want to research this further? Anyone want to go down Pike's Peak like this?
Maybe I am wrong. But I think we need more than opinion. Some interested points have been raised.
My suggestion was to leave some advance applied.

Mike V. Florida · 06-03-2014, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

well well well....
as I have stated we need engineering data.

1 mile may not be much of a test.
But what else is going on with this contrived condition:
1. slow revving engine is also not turning water pump very fast, 30 mph air at radiator or not.
2. There will be no internal cooling effect from intake air entering the chamber via the intake valves.
3. It is well documented that a late motor will run hot. Maybe not in 1 mile.
Anyone want to research this further? Anyone want to go down Pike's Peak like this?
Maybe I am wrong. But I think we need more than opinion. Some interested points have been raised.
My suggestion was to leave some advance applied.

But one mile is EXACTLY what he is talking about!

700rpm · 06-03-2014, 12:03 AM

This just seems like a bad idea. Not scientific, no mechanical tests done, just my gut feeling.

roccaas · 06-03-2014, 06:43 AM

Let's ask the experts in these matters:

http://throwinwrenches.blogspot.com/...py-ending.html

Terry,NJ · 06-03-2014, 08:36 AM

Just to add a new dimension to this, What does a car with automatic advance do when going down hill? If it's an advance that works on centrifugal weights,the advance retards with the lower engine speed. If it's a vacuum operated advance, The vacuum (As a force) goes up and the wipers run really well and the spark advances. Conclusion, It makes no difference.
Terry

tbirdtbird · 06-03-2014, 09:23 AM

haha Roccaas sends us to a Three Stooges blog for an answer. Maybe that is what it will take:
Strap the 3 Stooges in an A and send them down Pike's peak with the advance lever broken off in the retarded position and see what happens to the car when it reaches the bottom

Gold Digger · 06-03-2014, 09:46 AM

One of these grades that I descend is long and winding. I always shift down to first gear at the top and never let it over wind. I have never had an over heating problem. I have a "thermo quail" radiator cap and I can see the red come up on inclines about I/2 an inch but it never comes up in sight going down.

06-02-2014, 03:58 PM	#1
Gold Digger Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Arkansas & Alaska Posts: 685	How dumb can you get As some of you already know I drive a sixty mile trip every Sunday. Well some of the trip is going up and down 8% mountain grades. For some reason I have always had trying to go faster on my mind and never retarded the spark while going down these grades. I always slow down and shift down to first gear as two of these declines are almost a mile long. Yesterday I just moved the spark up all the way and I could feel an enormous difference in the engine holding back. I've been driving model A's since 1958 and never tried or heard anyone comment on this. Is this something everyone knew but me and does this do any kind of harm to the engine?

06-02-2014, 04:29 PM	#2
modelAtony Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: lafayette,la Posts: 459	Re: How dumb can you get JUST REMEMBER THE RULE OF THUMB what ever gear you go up in . come down the other side in . ( or lower ) and there at your speed you will be running is where you need the spark. have fun modelAtony tony white Lafayette, LA

06-02-2014, 04:32 PM	#3
Mike V. Florida Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Florida between Sarasota and TampaSouth Florida Posts: 14,054	Re: How dumb can you get It has been mentioned here before, not often but it has. Dumb would be knowing about it and not doing it. Your actions all these these years were not dumb at all! Guess the saying about old dogs is not true after all. __________________ What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II

06-02-2014, 05:01 PM	#4
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: How dumb can you get I am not sure how good an idea this is. You would retard the spark some under severe load going uphill. But full retard going down is making the motor run very late and prone to overheating. It is holding the car back because it is so retarded. But that ain't necessarily better. If you must I would not fully retard it __________________ '31 180A

06-02-2014, 06:24 PM	#6
J Franklin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon Posts: 6,370	Re: How dumb can you get Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I doubt there would be much combustion heat going down hill with retarded ignition.

06-02-2014, 07:40 PM	#7
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: How dumb can you get You should name your spark lever, "JAKE"! as in, "JAKE BRAKE"---Since it helps hold 'er back, thet's a GOOD thing!! It WON'T cause overheating, the engine's jist LAFFIN' & havin' FUN!---Bill W. __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"

06-02-2014, 09:25 PM	#8
steve s Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Kalamazoo Posts: 1,656	Re: How dumb can you get It may not cause overheating, but I agree with tbirdtbird that full retard going down hill is probably not good practice. The throttle is closed, there's very little fuel/air charge in the chambers, compression will be very low--normally conditions under which you want spark advance. Do you notice any difference in backfiring?

06-02-2014, 09:58 PM	#9
dumb person Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: South pacific island Posts: 1,724	Re: How dumb can you get i heard it helps but i thought it would bur my exhaust valves. __________________ <Link> This is how we roll<Link> "I'm Convinced that no one really reads posts anymore; they just fabricate what they think the post says then ramble on about red herrings."--Bob Outcasts rules of old cars #1 Fun is imperative, mainstream is overrated #2 If they think it is impossible, prove them wrong #3 If the science says it impossible you are not being creative enough. #4 No shame in recreating something you never had #5 If it were not for the law & physics you would be unstoppable

06-02-2014, 10:05 PM	#10
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: How dumb can you get "It will NOT over heat !!" This statement needs to be backed up with engineering data. The engine will NOT be at idle since the downward incline will impart torque and RPM to the crank There is no precedent for this or capability for this in any other automotive situation. __________________ '31 180A Last edited by tbirdtbird; 06-02-2014 at 10:32 PM.

06-02-2014, 10:41 PM	#11
J Franklin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon Posts: 6,370	Re: How dumb can you get It will not overheat! the throttle is closed going downhill. It is fire that heats an engine.

06-02-2014, 10:43 PM	#12
Purdy Swoft Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alabama Posts: 8,099	Re: How dumb can you get Retarding the spark going down hill is no advantage at all. It won't cause overheating but will cause popping. As a kid I would rev the engine and retard the spark to cause backfire or retard the spark to make it pop while decellerating ,going down hill. It had a straight stack back then and still does now. now.

06-02-2014, 10:57 PM	#13
Mike V. Florida Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Florida between Sarasota and TampaSouth Florida Posts: 14,054	Re: How dumb can you get Let me see, One mile downward slope Driver wants to go slow, what is slow? Lets say 30mph. Driver retards the spark at the very top of the hill and advances it again 1 mile later. Auto has 30MPH air running through the radiator. One mile at 30 mph is two minutes The car will over heat during the two minutes? __________________ What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II

06-02-2014, 11:51 PM	#14
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: How dumb can you get well well well.... as I have stated we need engineering data. 1 mile may not be much of a test. But what else is going on with this contrived condition: 1. slow revving engine is also not turning water pump very fast, 30 mph air at radiator or not. 2. There will be no internal cooling effect from intake air entering the chamber via the intake valves. 3. It is well documented that a late motor will run hot. Maybe not in 1 mile. Anyone want to research this further? Anyone want to go down Pike's Peak like this? Maybe I am wrong. But I think we need more than opinion. Some interested points have been raised. My suggestion was to leave some advance applied. __________________ '31 180A

06-03-2014, 12:03 AM	#16
700rpm Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 6,039	Re: How dumb can you get This just seems like a bad idea. Not scientific, no mechanical tests done, just my gut feeling. __________________ Ray Horton, Portland, OR As you go through life, keep your eye on the donut, not the hole.

06-03-2014, 06:43 AM	#17
roccaas Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Savannah, GA Posts: 1,300	Re: How dumb can you get Let's ask the experts in these matters: http://throwinwrenches.blogspot.com/...py-ending.html __________________ 20 years ago we had Johnny Cash, Steve Jobs, and Bob Hope. Now we have no Cash, no Jobs, and no Hope...please don't let Kevin Bacon die!

06-03-2014, 08:36 AM	#18
Terry,NJ Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Northern Bucks Co. Pa Posts: 632	Re: How dumb can you get Just to add a new dimension to this, What does a car with automatic advance do when going down hill? If it's an advance that works on centrifugal weights,the advance retards with the lower engine speed. If it's a vacuum operated advance, The vacuum (As a force) goes up and the wipers run really well and the spark advances. Conclusion, It makes no difference. Terry

06-03-2014, 09:23 AM	#19
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: How dumb can you get haha Roccaas sends us to a Three Stooges blog for an answer. Maybe that is what it will take: Strap the 3 Stooges in an A and send them down Pike's peak with the advance lever broken off in the retarded position and see what happens to the car when it reaches the bottom __________________ '31 180A

06-03-2014, 09:46 AM	#20
Gold Digger Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Arkansas & Alaska Posts: 685	Re: How dumb can you get One of these grades that I descend is long and winding. I always shift down to first gear at the top and never let it over wind. I have never had an over heating problem. I have a "thermo quail" radiator cap and I can see the red come up on inclines about I/2 an inch but it never comes up in sight going down.