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11-04-2023, 09:02 PM | #1 |
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Location: Orcas Island Washington
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Troubleshooting Transmission '47 pickup
Last week while heading down our steep gravel road in first gear, the floor shift knob started vibrating badly and there was a loud clicking or ratcheting coming from the transmission area. There were no previous indications of this condition. This truck is the one I converted to a woodie wagon a few years back. I got us turned around and the noise/vibration was not evident going back up the hill. Later that day I pulled the driveshaft and checked the splines and u joints. Splines were perfect and showed almost 3" of engagement. The u joints were also in good shape. I finally got a chance to drive the vehicle quite aggresively today and the sound is very pronounced in decelleration and non existant in acceleration. Another important factor is this problem only exists in first gear. Second, third and reverse operate as before. While I have completely overhauled six or seven flathead V8s and all manner of other repairs on the V8 trucks, I have no experience with transmissions. Is it time to pull this 3 speed and open it up? (I have all winter). Could this be something more external? And lastly I have been considering a T-5 swap as my tall tires, hilly island environment, stock 221 engine and heavy vehicle have me longing for a lower first gear. With open driveline, maybe the T-5 swap is pretty straighforward? Thanks in advance, GB
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Owner/Operator of 'Jailbar Ranch' on the side of Mt. Pickett. Current stable consists of 1946 1/2 ton pickup turned woodie wagon with FH V8, 1946 Tonner Pickup with 226 H six, 1979 Toyota landcruiser wagon, now wearing 1947 Ford Jailbar sheet metal. 'Rusty ol' floorboards, hot on their feet' (Alan Jackson) |
11-04-2023, 09:21 PM | #2 |
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Re: Troubleshooting Transmission '47 pickup
countershaft thrust washer is worn out--these trans are not very "backdownable" very weak thrust washers on counter shaft. does not do it in reverse because the thrust is in the other direction on the counter shaft
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11-05-2023, 08:24 AM | #3 |
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Re: Troubleshooting Transmission '47 pickup
If you do decide to rebuild what you have I highly recommend Mac Van Pelt's book on rebuilding these transmissions. It was a big help to me when doing my first. He is also an excellent source for spare parts.
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11-05-2023, 08:35 AM | #4 |
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Re: Troubleshooting Transmission '47 pickup
I tend to agree with Alan in regard to the most probable cause.
I agree with Sidevalve in regard to obtaining that book. These transmissions are NOT tough to rebuild at all. With what I'd witnessed of your exploits, you'll soon be wondering why you may have had some hesitancy to tackle this. You CAN handle this.
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11-05-2023, 10:38 AM | #5 |
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Re: Troubleshooting Transmission '47 pickup
When you had the driveshaft out did you happen to check for end play in the mainshaft?
Regards, Paul |
11-05-2023, 10:59 AM | #6 |
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Re: Troubleshooting Transmission '47 pickup
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Owner/Operator of 'Jailbar Ranch' on the side of Mt. Pickett. Current stable consists of 1946 1/2 ton pickup turned woodie wagon with FH V8, 1946 Tonner Pickup with 226 H six, 1979 Toyota landcruiser wagon, now wearing 1947 Ford Jailbar sheet metal. 'Rusty ol' floorboards, hot on their feet' (Alan Jackson) |
11-05-2023, 11:17 AM | #7 |
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Re: Troubleshooting Transmission '47 pickup
My 'new' mechanic shop.
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Owner/Operator of 'Jailbar Ranch' on the side of Mt. Pickett. Current stable consists of 1946 1/2 ton pickup turned woodie wagon with FH V8, 1946 Tonner Pickup with 226 H six, 1979 Toyota landcruiser wagon, now wearing 1947 Ford Jailbar sheet metal. 'Rusty ol' floorboards, hot on their feet' (Alan Jackson) |
11-05-2023, 08:57 PM | #8 |
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Re: Troubleshooting Transmission '47 pickup
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The only thing nice about being imperfect is the joy it brings to others.... "Silver rings, your butt! Them's washers!" "We shot our way out of that town for a dollar's worth of steel holes!" - from 'The Wild Bunch' - 1969 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NReUd2_0u0 |
11-05-2023, 10:55 AM | #9 |
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Re: Troubleshooting Transmission '47 pickup
Thanks for the votes of confidence! Prior to this transmission situation I spent 3 days cleaning and organizing my narrow 'side shop' 14'x 28' into a sort of engine work space and am now looking into insulating and heating this room off the main garage. In the past it was used for an overflow area for the woodworking business, where we had a duplicate table saw and planer and some needed lumber storage. That was in the era of 3 or 4 employees. Now it's just me and the original woodshop is plenty. My thought was to build that long anticipated 255 8ba for the woodie this winter. I have most of what I need with the exception of pistons and rod bearings. My crank cleaned up at .010/.020. Would the added torque of this 255 over my 221 be enough to help me ease off nicely in first gear? Today I back out of the garage, point the rear downhill and start out cold up a rather steep incline. It requires some clutch slip which involves some serious and annoying 'judder'. Yes, I'm guilty of not having the flywheel machined, combined with the use of recycled engine mounts gleaned from a 3lb coffee can. I won't make these errors again. Moving in this direction I could rebuild my 3 speed, surface flywheel, new mounts (from where?) and spend the 2 grand on the engine parts and machine work instead of the T-5, adaptor/clutch/driveshaft mods. OOOH, maybe dual exhausts.....
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Owner/Operator of 'Jailbar Ranch' on the side of Mt. Pickett. Current stable consists of 1946 1/2 ton pickup turned woodie wagon with FH V8, 1946 Tonner Pickup with 226 H six, 1979 Toyota landcruiser wagon, now wearing 1947 Ford Jailbar sheet metal. 'Rusty ol' floorboards, hot on their feet' (Alan Jackson) |
11-05-2023, 11:18 AM | #10 |
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Re: Troubleshooting Transmission '47 pickup
I agree that you will have no trouble rebuilding your transmission. About 30 years ago when I was building my '36 3 window, I wanted a good reliable transmission to go behind the 276 ci flathead I was putting in it. I bought a '39 transmission off of Hemmings, a good '46-'48 transmission locally and all the NOS small parts (bearings, synchronizers, etc.) I could find. I also had an early Ford transmission book I got somewhere. After reading the book about three times, I got to work. I was careful and ended up with a transmission that was virtually perfect.
Long story short, I had almost no experience going in and got very good results. For a guy with your skills, it should be a "piece of cake". |
11-05-2023, 07:05 PM | #11 |
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Re: Troubleshooting Transmission '47 pickup
You should have no problems rebuilding an old Ford transmission. I have to ask, if you are contemplating a transmission swap to get a lower first gear why not go with a 4 speed crashbox? They made half ton rear mounts for them and are usually free when you find one.
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11-05-2023, 09:38 PM | #12 | |
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Re: Troubleshooting Transmission '47 pickup
Quote:
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Owner/Operator of 'Jailbar Ranch' on the side of Mt. Pickett. Current stable consists of 1946 1/2 ton pickup turned woodie wagon with FH V8, 1946 Tonner Pickup with 226 H six, 1979 Toyota landcruiser wagon, now wearing 1947 Ford Jailbar sheet metal. 'Rusty ol' floorboards, hot on their feet' (Alan Jackson) Last edited by GB SISSON; 11-05-2023 at 09:46 PM. |
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02-10-2024, 12:30 PM | #13 | |
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Re: Troubleshooting Transmission '47 pickup
Quote:
This is what got me interested in the recent post about an NP 435 behind a flathead. Unlike 99% of most V8 enthusiasts, I like a nice granny gear, and almost never have any use for an overdrive with our 40 mph top speed on this rock. It sure looks like a good fit. With the ford style transmission I would need to reduce the input flange O.D. from 4.085 to 4.075 for a nice centered fit into the hogshead (I'm learning new words), then make a sleeve for the TOB snout. Depending on a spacer/plate or not, the 6.5" shaft might be fine and the pilot diameters are the same. The clutch fork and shaft situation seems ok from my limited knowledge of such things. The cross member would need to be addressed, and the driveshaft shortened, wich I have done sucessfully 4 or 5 times. Undoubtedly there would be more that I can't see from here. Just thought this was interesting as I'd have a sturdy truck transmission, granny low, synchromesh, quiet helical gears, ready availability and the kind of engineering problem I like to solve. Upon re-reading this lengthy treatise, I have to ask.... I need opinions here. With my new engine at 276 cu in replacing the 221, a surfaced flywheel, new clutch, new motor mounts etc, will this new combination alleviate the need for the low first and all the clutch slipping/clutch shudder to get rolling uphill? If so, I'd just rebuild my current tranny, bolt it to the new 8ba and drive on.
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Owner/Operator of 'Jailbar Ranch' on the side of Mt. Pickett. Current stable consists of 1946 1/2 ton pickup turned woodie wagon with FH V8, 1946 Tonner Pickup with 226 H six, 1979 Toyota landcruiser wagon, now wearing 1947 Ford Jailbar sheet metal. 'Rusty ol' floorboards, hot on their feet' (Alan Jackson) |
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11-05-2023, 09:49 PM | #14 |
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Re: Troubleshooting Transmission '47 pickup
Does your 3 speed have the 25 tooth cluster gear? If not, that might be a good option to get lower first and second gears.
My mistake!! Should have said 29 tooth cluster. (Thanks Tim!)
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Don't never get rid of nuthin! Last edited by PeteVS; 11-07-2023 at 09:35 AM. |
11-05-2023, 11:50 PM | #15 |
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Re: Troubleshooting Transmission '47 pickup
Sounds like something to look into for sure. Just the kind of thing I will be researching. Thanks much. Highest speed limit here is 40 on one of the few straightaways. We have taken the woodie to the mainland 3 times since building it, and only once on the interstate, so you can see my needs are different than most of today's drivers of early fords.
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Owner/Operator of 'Jailbar Ranch' on the side of Mt. Pickett. Current stable consists of 1946 1/2 ton pickup turned woodie wagon with FH V8, 1946 Tonner Pickup with 226 H six, 1979 Toyota landcruiser wagon, now wearing 1947 Ford Jailbar sheet metal. 'Rusty ol' floorboards, hot on their feet' (Alan Jackson) |
11-06-2023, 01:09 PM | #16 | |
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Re: Troubleshooting Transmission '47 pickup
Quote:
That 25-tooth cluster is one of the two available "Zephyr Gearsets" that was available back then. The other was, of course, the 26-tooth cluster. Both of these gearsets allowed the car to be WOUND-OUT in both 1st & 2nd gears, but both were notorious for being 'dogs' off the line which to me, indicates 'BIG dog trying to take-off UP a hill. Stock old Ford 3-speeds normally have either 28-tooth (most common) clusters or 29-tooth clusters. The 28-tooth yields a 2.82 1st gear and a 1.604 2nd gear. 29-tooth clusters have a 3.114 1st gear and a 1.773 2nd gear. Check-out this gear ratio chart BELOW provided by Mac VanPelt. Coop http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/f...gearratios.htm . Last edited by V8COOPMAN; 11-06-2023 at 04:02 PM. |
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11-06-2023, 03:48 PM | #17 |
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Re: Troubleshooting Transmission '47 pickup
You guys are making my day with all this knowledge. Many thanks!
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Owner/Operator of 'Jailbar Ranch' on the side of Mt. Pickett. Current stable consists of 1946 1/2 ton pickup turned woodie wagon with FH V8, 1946 Tonner Pickup with 226 H six, 1979 Toyota landcruiser wagon, now wearing 1947 Ford Jailbar sheet metal. 'Rusty ol' floorboards, hot on their feet' (Alan Jackson) |
11-06-2023, 08:30 AM | #18 |
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Re: Troubleshooting Transmission '47 pickup
Gary, I'm probably finished with my transmission rebuilding projects. If you can use a copy of Mac VP's book, send me a PM for your mailing address and I'll send it to you it off to you with my compliments....it was invaluable to me when I rebuilt my '47 side shifter!!
Regards....Dick |
11-06-2023, 12:11 PM | #19 | |
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Re: Troubleshooting Transmission '47 pickup
Quote:
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Owner/Operator of 'Jailbar Ranch' on the side of Mt. Pickett. Current stable consists of 1946 1/2 ton pickup turned woodie wagon with FH V8, 1946 Tonner Pickup with 226 H six, 1979 Toyota landcruiser wagon, now wearing 1947 Ford Jailbar sheet metal. 'Rusty ol' floorboards, hot on their feet' (Alan Jackson) |
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11-06-2023, 12:24 PM | #20 |
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Re: Troubleshooting Transmission '47 pickup
Does anyone have the specs on this 25 tooth cluster gear? I'm guessing I have the higher geared version. This could be a great solution. Edit: Looking at the VanPelt site, the chart seems to indicate the higher tooth (28) on first of the cluster results in a lower first and second. It also reminds me that there was a HD 3 speed for trucks with a low in the mid 3's, and a synchro 4 speed from '48-'64. These options could be very rare I'm thinking.
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Owner/Operator of 'Jailbar Ranch' on the side of Mt. Pickett. Current stable consists of 1946 1/2 ton pickup turned woodie wagon with FH V8, 1946 Tonner Pickup with 226 H six, 1979 Toyota landcruiser wagon, now wearing 1947 Ford Jailbar sheet metal. 'Rusty ol' floorboards, hot on their feet' (Alan Jackson) Last edited by GB SISSON; 11-06-2023 at 12:43 PM. |
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