Bleeding brakes-pedal pressure problem. Could use some advice/suggestions

[glennpm]

Yes I understand. The other problem was the lever ratio would be too high leading to a mess ….

[acchaplin]

Originally Posted by glennpm

Okay, summary time for me.

- Your 1"-1" dual master is fine.
- Stock Ford of this first Ford use of hydraulics had a single MC with a 1-1/16" bore
- There is no need to change your stock wheel cylinders. Ford has already figured that out, including providing larger wheel cylinder bores for the leading, dominate brake shoe.
- There is no need to check the stroke. With a brake arm ratio of 3.85, you will have more stroke than stock, noting that a '40 has a ratio of 6 to 1.

I recommend that you do the following:

- Keep everything as you have it but install two inline RPVs as shown below. Your leg length for the rear may be too short to allow the flaring tool. You can either make that leg longer or put the RPV on the straight hard line on your torque tube right after the flex hose. That's what I have.

When you buy the RPVs, get them without fittings. You'll have to buy four 1/8" NPT X 7/16-24 inverted flare. Most of the kits will have a 3/8-24 which is for 3/16" lines.





Glenn

How in the hell can you do that! Take MY picture enlarge it, then draw on it! Geeze, no wonder you make the big bucks! I can not even TAKE a picture, let alone post it on these sites or try and draw on it! (shaking bowed head slowly back and forth with eyes closed) Once when they did away with the Instamatic 110 camera I was lost. Let alone use a telephone to take pictures!
Anyway.

Soon as I get my Agent Orange check here in a few days, I order a couple of those valves from Wildwood. (recommended on here a few posts back)

Now. Vital questions, please! Are those valves offered in 1/4"? Or can I get a 1/4" inverted flair fitting that goes down to 3/16" to thread into the valve? Remember, the only time I have ever SEEN those valves was in that ebay ad you posted.

Next, can those valves be mounted, verticle? Or is horzantal (flat. I cain't spel) the required mounting.
Is there a required distance fron the MC?

For the rear residual location, w/o making a whole different line comming out of the rear MC port. The only location I have, is what you said above, between the end of the flex tube fitting and mount, back to the brass T. (not in the picture) I have a straight piece of tubing connecting the two. It's somewhere between 2 and 3 inches long. Depending on exactly how long those valves are with end fittings will determine if it will fit up in there.

Polishing a foot long piece of tubing and nuts is NO problem. What is hard, (requires extra hands) is polishing a 6-8 FOOT long piece of tubing! So making another rear line isn't much of a problem. Anyway.

your quote; When you buy the RPVs, get them without fittings. You'll have to buy four 1/8" NPT X 7/16-24 inverted flare. Most of the kits will have a 3/8-24 which is for 3/16" lines.
I SEE now,,,,, I think. The bare Residual valves are 1/8 NPT threads on ecah end, correct? So I get 4, 1/4" inverted flair fittings that had 1/8" NPT threads to thread into ecah end of the valve? (the fog is going away now,,,,,,,)

I just now got off of Wilwood's web site, and they have a blueprint of their valves. about 1 9/16" or 1 5/8" long (1.60 something or other. 1.50 is a inch and a half) and they showed, like you said, 1/8" pipe threads in the ends. I'll order them here on the first.

[acchaplin]

Originally Posted by FRANK PKNY

Everyone has neglected to question if the drums are cut out of speck(over cut to smoothen out) you will never get a good pedal! how much over were they cut? I believe this could be your problem.

There is a drive shaft-brake place in the next county over. They have been turning brake drums and hubs since the early '50's. They still have their original brake lathe in operation for the restoration guys. Pricey. $20. a drum, or drum and hub.

[acchaplin]

Glenn, your statment;
That aside, when I set mine up I considered drilling a large hole through the back of the pedal bracket and frame. I even drilled a hole in the new lever arm I welded to the stock '32. I decided against this route, keeping the frame as stock as possible using existing bolt holes.

I too am a stickler for using only factory existing frame holes! I have the (large?) copy of the original '32 Ford frame blueprint I go by. NO extra welding or drilling! I "did" have to enlarge the frame hole where the steering box pitman arm shaft sticks through. Got one of Neil Jennings' '37 Hudson steering box conversions, with the original headlight switch (polished and chromed) sticking out the end.

I have made probably a dozen brackets (out of polished stainless) using exixting holes. Anyway.

[glennpm]

Originally Posted by acchaplin

Soon as I get my Agent Orange check here in a few days

Nam?

Now. Vital questions, please! Are those valves offered in 1/4"?

Nope

Next, can those valves be mounted, verticle? Or is horzantal (flat. I cain't spel) the required mounting.

No restriction, but you can mount them horizontally

Is there a required distance from the MC?

Nope, just put before your tee split for the rear wheels

For the rear residual location, w/o making a whole different line comming out of the rear MC port. The only location I have, is what you said above, between the end of the flex tube fitting and mount, back to the brass T. (not in the picture) I have a straight piece of tubing connecting the two. It's somewhere between 2 and 3 inches long. Depending on exactly how long those valves are with end fittings will determine if it will fit up in there.

your quote; When you buy the RPVs, get them without fittings. You'll have to buy four 1/8" NPT X 7/16-24 inverted flare. Most of the kits will have a 3/8-24 which is for 3/16" lines.
I SEE now,,,,, I think. The bare Residual valves are 1/8 NPT threads on ecah end, correct?

Yes

So I get 4, 1/4" inverted flair fittings that had 1/8" NPT threads to thread into ecah end of the valve? (the fog is going away now,,,,,,,)

Yes

I just now got off of Wilwood's web site, and they have a blueprint of their valves. about 1 9/16" or 1 5/8" long (1.60 something or other. 1.50 is a inch and a half) and they showed, like you said, 1/8" pipe threads in the ends. I'll order them here on the first.

Getting there!

[glennpm]

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Originally Posted by flatford8

I’ve read thru this thread…..post #12 asked if the wheel cylinders had the holes drilled in the correct location…….this has been an issue with after market wheel cylinders……..I didn’t see your answer

This would be a good time to check one of your wheel cylinders. If you got them from the same source, Drake I think you said, then just check one of the front cylinders.


Glenn

[acchaplin]

I'll have pictures taken this week end,,,,,,.

Yes, "Across The Pond"

[acchaplin]

All the bleeder valves sure looks like that they are on the top of the wheel clys.

[glennpm]

Originally Posted by acchaplin

All the bleeder valves sure looks like that they are on the top of the wheel clys.

It's not the bleeder orientation causing the problem. It is so called "new" wheel cylinders from China. The two issues I've heard about are that the rubber seal cups are too short and two, the inlet fluid holes are too far up the bore, toward the the brake shoe tangs and not sealed as a result. Since you have during your bleeding attempts, not seen fluid leaks dripping or pouring out of your brake drums, You are probably okay.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=325805

and good pictures from Mart here:

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showp...6&postcount=12

Glenn

[Kurt in NJ]

The bleeder screws may be on the top on the outside but that doesn’t really matter if the drilling goes to the top inside—- if it doesn’t go to the top inside there will be air trapped in the cylinder.
The other issue is the fluid hole — inside the cylinder it has to emerge in the center between the cups resting place some were drilled at the angle of the hose fitting and emerged off center inside sometimes underneath the rubber cup.

[acchaplin]

Originally Posted by glennpm

It's not the bleeder orientation causing the problem. It is so called "new" wheel cylinders from China. The two issues I've heard about are that the rubber seal cups are too short and two, the inlet fluid holes are too far up the bore, toward the the brake shoe tangs and not sealed as a result. Since you have during your bleeding attempts, not seen fluid leaks dripping or pouring out of your brake drums, You are probably okay.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=325805

and good pictures from Mart here:

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showp...6&postcount=12

Glenn

OH FECES! So, my (lack of 'pedal') problem "might" be Bob Drake's brake wheel clys are made in China, (by slave labor, using wheel clyinder cups make out of old "flip-flops" the slant,,,,,, orentials,,,,, have wore out) by a person who has a well used 6" machinest's scale!? When asked, how many 64ths are in an inch? They look at their scale, and in wide eyed bewilderment say, "man! They must be a million of 'em in there!"

GREAT! Just great! Shoulden't these places that knowenly sell this (50/50 chance of being defective) feces made in 3rd whorld countrys be ashamed!?

The residual valves you suggested, I ordered from Wilwood, will be here next week sometime. I'll make (section) new lines, get 'em installed. Hopefully, someone will be here on the week end to help me bleed, again........

I WILL post the results!

[glennpm]

Originally Posted by Kurt in NJ

The bleeder screws may be on the top on the outside but that doesn’t really matter if the drilling goes to the top inside—- if it doesn’t go to the top inside there will be air trapped in the cylinder.

Hi Kurt,


I know you're mentioned the bleed holes before. Do you have any pictures of this? I don't understand that a drilled then tapped hole for the bleeders is not drilled through?


Glenn

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by glennpm

Hi Kurt,


I know you're mentioned the bleed holes before. Do you have any pictures of this? I don't understand that a drilled then tapped hole for the bleeders is not drilled through?


Glenn

The hole is drilled through but it is in the wrong location on the inside of the wheel cylinder.

[glennpm]

Thanks Bob

[acchaplin]

Well Nutz,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,! I was hoping that I would have those residual valves plumed in, and Grandson would be pumping the brake pedal, and got a firm full "pedal" and that was the "root" of the lack of brake problem!

(sigh) Wilwood somehow got my addy messed up, and they received the valves back. They called me and said that another pair was expidted, that I should receive them by next Tuesday. (wow! good customer relations)

So I'll report the end of next week if these valves are successfull.

[69a]

You can plumb in your residual pressure valves anywhere in the brake line. Before or after a rubber hose would mean you don't need to rework your steel lines.

[acchaplin]

UPDATE: I finally received the residual valve from Wilwood. Trying to put those valves in after the fact was one great big roayal PIA!!
To get the rear valve plumed in I had to remoive both rear lines, deepen two bends to try and shorten up the diastance between the rear "T" and the flex hose end. Had to order some oddball fittings, plus make a statinless fitting. That took almost 2 weeks to get done.
I also had to make another hard line from the end of the hose to the MC, because that distance was now shorter.
The front valve was fairly simple to mount. Just cut out a section of the front line, double flare the two ends, plum the valve in. However, to get the front line out of the frame, to cut the section out, and use the vice to preform the double flare, was almost impossible. No room to get the wrenches to the fitting. Then trying to feed the line back throuigh the frame, K-member, around the steering box, past the oil filter, then the corner of the motor mount on that side. PIA.
Started the bleed process this evening. Seemed to be getting a good pedal. The rear line I had to re make because of the shorter distance, from the flex hose to the MC port wouldn't stop seeping. Each time i tightened the fitting nut, the leak would get worse. So I made another line. (A long process to polish the line, then double flair one end, then polish that part and the nut. Then bend to shape. Double flair that end. Then repolish the bends and that nut.) It too leaked a little bit at the MC. Started to make the 3rd line, but looked into the MC port and noticed a small part of the inverted flair was broken off.
So now, I have to run to the parts store buy another manual, drum drum, dual port, 1" bore, non internal residual valve, master clyinder!
I'll think I had better hook it up then run another quart of fluid (got through 2 quarts so far) through it. Make sure everything works correctly, before sending it to the powder coaters. Let you know next week.

[Mart]

Having read all the above I am happy to have reverted to just using stock brakes. Glad you have got it all working though.

[glennpm]

Doing good!

[Terry,OH]

Suggest you adjust the rear brakes so they have heavy drag, both the front and rear shoes before bleeding.