The Ford Barn

marty in Ohio · 10-16-2012, 06:15 PM

Hey, Barners,
Last week my "30 Town Sedan came home on a flatbed. It would crank, lots of gas but no start. After a trip to Snyders it now has a new coil. condenser, points, rotor, dist. body and cap. It still wouldn't run till I changed the ignition switch. Had it out today and it ran OK but a little rough. I started her to bring her home from a trip to Home Depot and she acted like it was running out of gas. She finally stalled. I got her running but she wouldn't take an advanced spark, only retarded. I got a short distance and again had to come home on the flatbed. My local Model A friend thought it was a gas issue, so I checked out the gasline, lots of flow to the carb. I took off the carb , a new Zenith a year ago, and everything there looks OK. I checked the timing and looks OK. I got her to run in the garage a little but only with the spark retarded. When I advanced the lever she died. Please help with any suggestions. I'm beginning to know the towtruck driver on a first name basis.
Marty in Ohio

Tom Wesenberg · 10-16-2012, 06:23 PM

Probably the wire between the upper and lower plates is touching the spring or casting.

700rpm · 10-16-2012, 06:24 PM

Timing would be the first thing I'd check because of your advance/retard symptom. Then point gap, distributor plate as Tom suggests (they can short underneath with that short wire), carb adjustments, and GAV adjustment when driving. Also make sure you don't have an intermittent ground short with the new ignition switch (assuming it's not an original type). They can sometimes short out against speedo, gas nut, dash panel, and such when you pull the dash up tight.

Tom Wesenberg · 10-16-2012, 06:31 PM

Also make sure the distributor has a good ground. No paint on the distributor part in the head and no rust in the head hole. A coating of antiseize is also good on that part in the head.

marty in Ohio · 10-16-2012, 06:37 PM

Wow, you guys are fast on the reply. The car ran today and then just died. I had the dist. apart to put in the new points and the wire looked good at that time. Could it short out as I drove it? I pulled the instrument panel off to look for a loose wire on the switch and everything there looked OK also. Carb and GAV are the same as before all the problems started. I'll check the dist. wire tomorrow and see if that could be the problem. Would that cause the problem with it running only retarded? Thanks for your input guys.

Fred K-OR · 10-16-2012, 06:55 PM

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Yes to your question. And check some of the other things Ray mentioned above.

ba49 · 10-16-2012, 09:51 PM

Hey Marty, I'm pactically a neighbor,Sheffield Lake. I had the exact same thing happening in my Coupe. I checked EVERYTHING! It turned out to be as Tom said, the wire between the upper and lower distributor plates. Be glad to help anytime if you need it.
Bill

marty in Ohio · 10-16-2012, 10:16 PM

Bill,
We are neighbors. I'm in Elyria and I've been driving this car for almost 20 years. Tomorrow morning I'll take a look between the plates and see if the wire is touching. When I was at Snyder's last week I bought a condenser and they gave me the wrong one. I wanted the original one and they gave me the modern one. They mailed me the correct part and I wondered at the time if I should go to the modern plates. I'll keep you all updated on my progress.
Marty Rowe

ba49 · 10-16-2012, 10:28 PM

Marty, I switched to the modern plate in my coupe. I have the original type in my Town Car. Do you go to Big Lots on Fri. nights? We may have met.
Bill

marty in Ohio · 10-17-2012, 06:57 AM

Bill,
Just about every Friday in the summer. My car is the two-tone green town car. I think I know your cars now. Are you the man with lots of spare parts? What color are your cars?
Marty

ba49 · 10-17-2012, 12:38 PM

I had the T-bucket that said Black Widow on it. I have a 30 two-tone brown town car. I only had it there once. I was only there about 4 times. I remember your car, very nice! I'm the guy with the spares. The former owner gave me alot of parts with the town car including a nonrunning spare engine.
Bill

marty in Ohio · 10-17-2012, 02:27 PM

Well Guys,
For an update, I checked the wire between the dist. plates and all seemed OK. I did notice that the distance between the terminals on the new rotor body and the rotor was not the same at each terminal. I called Snyder's and talked to Vaughn. He told me this distance is very forgiving on an "A". He thought I could be shorting out at the fiber washer and maybe there is a break somewhere in the wire between the plates. I asked him to send me the lower plate, with the longer wire attached, and a new fiber washer. We'll see what that does. Snyder's is a great place for parts as well as advise. More later.
Bill, I got you now. I like all your cars.
Marty

ba49 · 10-17-2012, 02:43 PM

Marty, I've got an extra coil, condesor, and new points if you need them. I just ordered motor mounts and a frame spreader from Snyders, should be here tomorrow. I have the spark and ignition testers from Snyders if you need to borrow them. Let me know.
Bill

marty in Ohio · 10-18-2012, 07:25 AM

Thanks, Bill.
I should have parts here today also. I'll let you know if I need anything.
It's really good to know that Model A folks are so helpful.
Marty

jmeckel · 10-18-2012, 07:35 AM

One more thing to check I had this same type of problem after installing a new set of points. The problem ended up being the thin copper strap that follows the thicker metal "spring" on the points was too long and would touch the case of the dist. depending on how hot it got and the position of the advance. Took me a long time to find, the quick fix was to put a bend in the copper strap to take up the slack, had no more issues.

marty in Ohio · 10-18-2012, 02:54 PM

I didn't get the parts from Snyder's today. It's rare that I don't receive my parts the next day. Will watch tomorrow's mail.
Jon, Where is the thin copper strap? Is it inside the distributor? Remember I have the original dist. guts with the wire between the bottom and top plate.

Tom Wesenberg · 10-18-2012, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marty in Ohio

I didn't get the parts from Snyder's today. It's rare that I don't receive my parts the next day. Will watch tomorrow's mail.
Jon, Where is the thin copper strap? Is it inside the distributor? Remember I have the original dist. guts with the wire between the bottom and top plate.

The thin copper strap runs alongside the spring steel strap on the movable points arm. The spring steel supplies the points closing pressure, and the copper carries the current to supply the ground for the coil. I've also seen where the copper is a bit too long and I've put a small bend in it to keep it from touching the cast body and shorting to ground.

jmeckel · 10-18-2012, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

The thin copper strap runs alongside the spring steel strap on the movable points arm. The spring steel supplies the points closing pressure, and the copper carries the current to supply the ground for the coil. I've also seen where the copper is a bit too long and I've put a small bend in it to keep it from touching the cast body and shorting to ground.

Sorry I was a little slow to answer, Tom gave a good explanation of the strap location. I also have a original setup distributor the strap shorts to the shell of the distributor you may need to use a flashlight to really see the clearance as it is some what close, and you need to look kind of straight down at it from the top to really see good.

bobbycoke · 10-18-2012, 06:23 PM

You might want to check and set points,timing etc and then CHECK THE DISTRIBUTOR LOCK SCREW, if it is loose you will start and run then run terrible and die as the distributer moves......do not ask at what regional event [my first] that this happened! side of the road point changes.coil condenser than to finish the last 8 miles on a flatbed and brought to the car repair station, worried about cam, timing gear etc. a wise man in the repair tent wiggled the distributor set the timing tightened the nut and off I went tail between my legs...newbie I have learnt that the problems are usually the simple ones!

oldguy41 · 10-18-2012, 06:53 PM

A not so common problem in this area would be the serration on the bottom of the cam not bitting into the shoulder of the shaft. Place the cam on shaft, tighten screw, place rotor on, place hand on rotor and attempt to turn right and left, I have found two cams at jumped off location.

10-16-2012, 06:15 PM	#1
marty in Ohio Senior Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Elyria, Ohio Posts: 806	Timing problem? Hey, Barners, Last week my "30 Town Sedan came home on a flatbed. It would crank, lots of gas but no start. After a trip to Snyders it now has a new coil. condenser, points, rotor, dist. body and cap. It still wouldn't run till I changed the ignition switch. Had it out today and it ran OK but a little rough. I started her to bring her home from a trip to Home Depot and she acted like it was running out of gas. She finally stalled. I got her running but she wouldn't take an advanced spark, only retarded. I got a short distance and again had to come home on the flatbed. My local Model A friend thought it was a gas issue, so I checked out the gasline, lots of flow to the carb. I took off the carb , a new Zenith a year ago, and everything there looks OK. I checked the timing and looks OK. I got her to run in the garage a little but only with the spark retarded. When I advanced the lever she died. Please help with any suggestions. I'm beginning to know the towtruck driver on a first name basis. Marty in Ohio

10-16-2012, 06:23 PM	#2
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Timing problem? Probably the wire between the upper and lower plates is touching the spring or casting.

10-16-2012, 06:24 PM	#3
700rpm Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 6,039	Re: Timing problem? Timing would be the first thing I'd check because of your advance/retard symptom. Then point gap, distributor plate as Tom suggests (they can short underneath with that short wire), carb adjustments, and GAV adjustment when driving. Also make sure you don't have an intermittent ground short with the new ignition switch (assuming it's not an original type). They can sometimes short out against speedo, gas nut, dash panel, and such when you pull the dash up tight. __________________ Ray Horton, Portland, OR As you go through life, keep your eye on the donut, not the hole.

10-16-2012, 06:31 PM	#4
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Timing problem? Also make sure the distributor has a good ground. No paint on the distributor part in the head and no rust in the head hole. A coating of antiseize is also good on that part in the head.

10-16-2012, 06:37 PM	#5
marty in Ohio Senior Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Elyria, Ohio Posts: 806	Re: Timing problem? Wow, you guys are fast on the reply. The car ran today and then just died. I had the dist. apart to put in the new points and the wire looked good at that time. Could it short out as I drove it? I pulled the instrument panel off to look for a loose wire on the switch and everything there looked OK also. Carb and GAV are the same as before all the problems started. I'll check the dist. wire tomorrow and see if that could be the problem. Would that cause the problem with it running only retarded? Thanks for your input guys.

10-16-2012, 06:55 PM	#6
Fred K-OR Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Stayton, Oregon Posts: 3,806	Re: Timing problem? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Yes to your question. And check some of the other things Ray mentioned above. __________________ Fred Kroon 1929 Std Coupe 1929 Huckster

10-16-2012, 09:51 PM	#7
ba49 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Sheffield Lake, Ohio Posts: 137	Re: Timing problem? Hey Marty, I'm pactically a neighbor,Sheffield Lake. I had the exact same thing happening in my Coupe. I checked EVERYTHING! It turned out to be as Tom said, the wire between the upper and lower distributor plates. Be glad to help anytime if you need it. Bill

10-16-2012, 10:16 PM	#8
marty in Ohio Senior Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Elyria, Ohio Posts: 806	Re: Timing problem? Bill, We are neighbors. I'm in Elyria and I've been driving this car for almost 20 years. Tomorrow morning I'll take a look between the plates and see if the wire is touching. When I was at Snyder's last week I bought a condenser and they gave me the wrong one. I wanted the original one and they gave me the modern one. They mailed me the correct part and I wondered at the time if I should go to the modern plates. I'll keep you all updated on my progress. Marty Rowe

10-16-2012, 10:28 PM	#9
ba49 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Sheffield Lake, Ohio Posts: 137	Re: Timing problem? Marty, I switched to the modern plate in my coupe. I have the original type in my Town Car. Do you go to Big Lots on Fri. nights? We may have met. Bill

10-17-2012, 06:57 AM	#10
marty in Ohio Senior Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Elyria, Ohio Posts: 806	Re: Timing problem? Bill, Just about every Friday in the summer. My car is the two-tone green town car. I think I know your cars now. Are you the man with lots of spare parts? What color are your cars? Marty

10-17-2012, 12:38 PM	#11
ba49 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Sheffield Lake, Ohio Posts: 137	Re: Timing problem? I had the T-bucket that said Black Widow on it. I have a 30 two-tone brown town car. I only had it there once. I was only there about 4 times. I remember your car, very nice! I'm the guy with the spares. The former owner gave me alot of parts with the town car including a nonrunning spare engine. Bill

10-17-2012, 02:27 PM	#12
marty in Ohio Senior Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Elyria, Ohio Posts: 806	Re: Timing problem? Well Guys, For an update, I checked the wire between the dist. plates and all seemed OK. I did notice that the distance between the terminals on the new rotor body and the rotor was not the same at each terminal. I called Snyder's and talked to Vaughn. He told me this distance is very forgiving on an "A". He thought I could be shorting out at the fiber washer and maybe there is a break somewhere in the wire between the plates. I asked him to send me the lower plate, with the longer wire attached, and a new fiber washer. We'll see what that does. Snyder's is a great place for parts as well as advise. More later. Bill, I got you now. I like all your cars. Marty

10-17-2012, 02:43 PM	#13
ba49 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Sheffield Lake, Ohio Posts: 137	Re: Timing problem? Marty, I've got an extra coil, condesor, and new points if you need them. I just ordered motor mounts and a frame spreader from Snyders, should be here tomorrow. I have the spark and ignition testers from Snyders if you need to borrow them. Let me know. Bill

10-18-2012, 07:25 AM	#14
marty in Ohio Senior Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Elyria, Ohio Posts: 806	Re: Timing problem? Thanks, Bill. I should have parts here today also. I'll let you know if I need anything. It's really good to know that Model A folks are so helpful. Marty

10-18-2012, 07:35 AM	#15
jmeckel Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Luck WI Posts: 550	Re: Timing problem? One more thing to check I had this same type of problem after installing a new set of points. The problem ended up being the thin copper strap that follows the thicker metal "spring" on the points was too long and would touch the case of the dist. depending on how hot it got and the position of the advance. Took me a long time to find, the quick fix was to put a bend in the copper strap to take up the slack, had no more issues. __________________ Jon "If you choose to not decide, you still have made a choice!" RUSH Don't tell me what you know..... Tell me what you have done.

10-18-2012, 02:54 PM	#16
marty in Ohio Senior Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Elyria, Ohio Posts: 806	Re: Timing problem? I didn't get the parts from Snyder's today. It's rare that I don't receive my parts the next day. Will watch tomorrow's mail. Jon, Where is the thin copper strap? Is it inside the distributor? Remember I have the original dist. guts with the wire between the bottom and top plate.

10-18-2012, 06:23 PM	#19
bobbycoke Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: pawlet vt/ port jefferson sta. ny Posts: 183	Re: Timing problem? You might want to check and set points,timing etc and then CHECK THE DISTRIBUTOR LOCK SCREW, if it is loose you will start and run then run terrible and die as the distributer moves......do not ask at what regional event [my first] that this happened! side of the road point changes.coil condenser than to finish the last 8 miles on a flatbed and brought to the car repair station, worried about cam, timing gear etc. a wise man in the repair tent wiggled the distributor set the timing tightened the nut and off I went tail between my legs...newbie I have learnt that the problems are usually the simple ones!

10-18-2012, 06:53 PM	#20
oldguy41 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Holly, Michigan Posts: 30	Re: Timing problem? A not so common problem in this area would be the serration on the bottom of the cam not bitting into the shoulder of the shaft. Place the cam on shaft, tighten screw, place rotor on, place hand on rotor and attempt to turn right and left, I have found two cams at jumped off location.