Next prob arrived too soon

[Christoph]

We travelled 5000 miles in 2011 and we want(ed) to top that in 2012.

After a short drive some days ago we had a first 100mile drive (2012)
yesterday and it was just perfect (with one old hub... see the other threat).

Today we started for another drive (due to perfect weather )

Sadly we didnt manage to go just 1 mile. While travelling about 20 mph,
arround a corner, not to much load on the engine (half throttle)
a "bang" occurred.


Car still moves, engine has no prob.

There is a bang-bang-bang with wheelspeed (shaft-speed?)

After a short investigation (no oil-down and wheels still attached), we
returned home (SLOW) and put the car on jack-stands.

Engine turned off an no gear, just turning back wheels, there is this
bang-bang-bang again.

From under the car it sounds as if noise comes from the Torque-Tube
(less probably Banjo)

What happened there and how to fix?

Any ideas welcome - Thank you

Sad greetings (again)
Christoph

Independent :
It might be wise to tell my wife, that we urgently need a spare-"A"

[62pan]

I would check the universal joint first.

[Russ/40]

Sounds like a broken tooth in the transmission or differential to me. Hope I'm wrong!

[Christoph]

A universal-joint might brake? Or what else could go wrong there?
Asking Les Andrews (book), it seems to me that checking the
universal joint should be not too complicated.

I checked noises a second time. While listening through a screw-driver
(pressed to car-parts as well as to my ear), i could hear the knocking
from the gearbox too, but sound was maximum-loud from the middle of the
Torque-tube....
If neutral gives noise too, which gears in gearbox could be gone?

Thank you
Christoph

[Patrick L.]

I read the posts and understand where you hear the noise, but, easy things first.. I'm just wondering if you sheared an axle key and thats the noise you're hearing and the key just catches enough to slightly move the car.. If removing both rear hubs doesn't show anything, well, you're not out that much work and they may have had to come off anyway..

[Russ/40]

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Originally Posted by Christoph

A universal-joint might brake? Or what else could go wrong there?
Asking Les Andrews (book), it seems to me that checking the
universal joint should be not too complicated.

I checked noises a second time. While listening through a screw-driver
(pressed to car-parts as well as to my ear), i could hear the knocking
from the gearbox too, but sound was maximum-loud from the middle of the
Torque-tube....
If neutral gives noise too, which gears in gearbox could be gone?

Thank you
Christoph

When in neutral, the input gear is driving the cluster gear as long as the clutch is up. A tooth off the cluster will make a hammering sound. Just had this happen in my '40.

[columbiA]

Remove the filler plug on the rear-end & slowly turn a wheel while looking at the ring gear to see if any broken teeth.Should drain RE to see if any pieces come out.If you have the top off the trans,engage two gears at once & see how much back lash you have when turning wheel with other wheel on ground.There should not be more than 2 or 3 ".

[Christoph]

Thank you all for your input
I appreciate each comment as there is nobody arround whom i could ask.
For sure i will check every suggestion (and will be back with the outcome)

@Patrick
nice idea - as i had a hub-issue some days ago.
For sure i will check, but putting my fingers onto the drivetrain (while my
wife turns the wheels of the jacked car) i feel maximum knocking at the
torque-tube.

@ Russ and Ed
whill check for sure. removing top of gearbox will be next (as still easy).
Not to much parts in this gearbox so i should find out (even my dictionary doesnt
tell me what a "cluster" is about...). I thought probs with a gearbox should do
more of a whining noise...

@ columbiA
nice one too, even i cant imagine that my eyes will fit into that small
filler-plug.
I will check.
(Same as gearbox - shouldnt rear end do more of a whining noise???)


Will leave work early today as weather is nice and i will have to go into investigation.

Thank you all again
I am so thankfull that there is Ford-Barn and all of you Specialists.
(My father couldnt teach me as he had no car and i had to grow 50 to buy my
first "A" . I will never reach your level of knowledge. (well - if my car goes on
with probs in that frequence.....)

Christoph

[real550A]

I would advise to check the simple things first. Broken gear teeth are much less likely than: 1. The hub/axle you just worked on.
2. A weak or broken U-joint. (the noise is in the torque tube)
I'm betting you'll find your problem in one of those areas. Good luck!

[Christoph]

I will check every of above mentioned ideas as i got to learn to look into
the right directions.

Even so im actually confident, that the U-joint is bad.....

I will be back
Christoph


I could easily fix a broken axle-key, so Murphy requests parts
to be bad, which i dont hold in stock...

[Russ/40]

Originally Posted by Christoph

Thank you all for your input
I appreciate each comment as there is nobody arround whom i could ask.
For sure i will check every suggestion (and will be back with

@ Russ and Ed
whill check for sure. removing top of gearbox will be next (as still easy).
Not to much parts in this gearbox so i should find out (even my dictionary doesnt
tell me what a "cluster" is about...). I thought probs with a gearbox should do
more of a whining noise...



Christoph

The cluster gear is the large gear that is made for 1st 2nd and 3rd gears that sits in the very bottom of the transmission. A missing tooth will not whine, but will make a knocking sound.

[JoeWay]

Originally Posted by Christoph

...Car still moves, engine has no prob.

There is a bang-bang-bang with wheelspeed (shaft-speed?)

...

Engine turned off an no gear, just turning back wheels, there is this bang-bang-bang again...

Independent :
It might be wise to tell my wife, that we urgently need a spare-"A"

This sounds to me like a tooth is broken off of one of the axle gears. Anything else I can think of would not repeat at "wheel-speed". You might be able to fish the broken piece out of the differential drain hole if that's the case, just for confirmation.

Joe

A spare Model A sounds like a great idea....

Joe

[Tacoma Bob]

better calculate a broken spider gear in the mix. Sounds like it wasn't differentialing. Happened to me a few years back with a fresh rear end rebuild.

[Christoph]

Thank you all for sharing your ideas
(for sure i would feel lonely and unsecure without you)

Did some investigation yesterday, with car on jacks:

Hubs and axle-keys do not have an issue. All used to be perfect mounted
and ok (and i didnt believe in that, as i checked that just before i left
for "that last mile").
Everything else would have been surprising, as (once axle-nuts are mounted
and tight) the taper will carry the load (not the axle-key).

Interesting thing now:

Turning rear wheels with no gear attached, i hear that bang-bang-bang

Turning rear wheels with any gear attached (due to differential, both rear
wheels rotate in different directions), there is no "ill" sound at all !

Still an gear attached i tried to fix one wheel and and move the other
wheel which did not work (and did no sound).

This means from my point of view:
No Prob with the rear wheels, wheel bearings, axle-shafts, spiders !

Prob has to be in the driveshaft-area between Cluster-gears (thank you Russ)
and Ring/Pinion

will dismount that hopefully today...
(hope all works out as my all-german-garage is TIGHT )

Will keep you updated
best regards from sunny Frankfurt ( perfect "A" weather - buhuuu)
Christoph

[Tom Wesenberg]

I'd say you have a ring/pinion problem, as in broken gear teeth. If you remove the right hub you can remove the left axle tube and pull the axle/differential assembly out the left side.

[Christoph]

If it is an ring/pinion problem: Should i screw out the differential-filling-plug
as noise should be louder there without the plug? (will try that anyway)

I feel that i wont be able pull the axle/differential assembly out the left side,
as my garage is tight ( 9 feet)....

Once i dismount outside the garage i wont be able to bring the car back into
the garage.

Is is much extra work to unscrew the U-Joint and take out the whole axle
(without dismounting the rear spring)?

Thank you
Christoph

BTW. I didnt manage to look inside the differential (via dif.-filler-plug).
Missed to turn wheels with open filler-plug.

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by Christoph

...
Is is much extra work to unscrew the U-Joint and take out the whole axle
(without dismounting the rear spring)?...

I just did this using the instructions in Les Andrews (Vol 1) book. Very complete and concise directions. The only problem encountered was that the 4 nuts holding the spring to the frame were rusted pretty good, but used penetrating oil and an impact wrench to loosen them.

[JoeWay]

Originally Posted by Christoph

...Turning rear wheels with no gear attached, i hear that bang-bang-bang ...

Christoph

Tom is right. If you get one "bang" per turn of wheel, it's a tooth broken off the ring gear. Spider and axle gears must be good, or it would bang with one wheel fixed and the other turning.

A tooth broken off the pinion would make noise almost 4 times per turn of wheel, but this seems unlikely as the ring gear probably would either bypass completely at the missing tooth, or jam as the ring and pinion interfered with each other.

Joe

[J Franklin]

You may be lucky and find as I did once in a transmission that a piece of chip from a gear had imbedded on a tooth and caused a racket that was remedied by knocking the chip off the gear-face.

[Christoph]

Thank you for your ideas. This really is so much help !

Sadly i had to work over 11 hours yesterday and i was somewhat worn out later.
Even so i HAD to go to the garage.

I read Les Andrews (of course) and he still leaves me in the idea that the
U-Joint is gone.

I didnt find an gearbox issue (due to Murphy that was to be expected)
As well i listened and looked into the banjo (open fill-in-screw)
Even after draining it, i couldnt see to well in there and found nothing special.

Did i tell you how hard it is to get a fully grown man in a small garage under an "A"
Once under the car i had to find out that outer covers of the U-Joint were allready
loose and the 6 screws towards the gearbox are 6 (!) different screws.
An European "A" has to have a nice worlwide mix of screws

So loosen those 6 screws i had to leave the position under the car for about 20 times
Of course the lower cover of the U-Joint fell off (into my face) and i kept some oil from
contaminating the ground by holding my face under the U-Joint....
You imagine, that i stopped at that point yesterday night....

If the U-Joint is gone, its for sure no prob of lubrication !!!!!!

Im still praying that its really a prob of the U-Joint.
If its a spider/pinion-prob, i got to order a rear spring spreader first

Airfreight transportation to germany takes between two weeks and two month
(my experience out of last 10 orders).

Alternative might be to take the complete rear-end to netherlands ( 550 km ) were
there is a dealer who might be able to help me ......

will keep you updated
Christoph