New Clutch problem

[pyroJeff]

I have a 31 model A that was operating fine and is now having a problem with the clutch or something sticking.

When starting the car in neutral, depress the clutch and trying to shift into gear, the transmission is still spinning and will not allow you easily shift into a gear. If you slowly feel the gear sync you can get it into a gear and release the clutch and the clutch feels good and has good travel in the pedal engaging and disengaging the clutch. Putting the transmission back into neutral and selecting another gear has the gears spinning again.

I took off the inspection cover and can see the throw out bearing engaging and disengaging when the clutch is operated. The clutch plate, springs and fingers look like they are in good condition. Atleast what I can see. The throw out bearing slider has been lubricated. Not sure if any of the bearings are wore or the last time they were replaced or inspected.

So my questions are is there anything I can try at this point or is a new clutch assembly and bearings in my future? If I do need to remove the transmission (rear end assembly removal method) what should I change out while I have it removed?

Was looking at the following clutch kit from Macs (link below). Should I change the pressure plate while I have it apart? How about throw out bearing hub or spring? Any other parts, gaskets, tricks, or tips would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you for your help.

Jeff

http://macsautoparts.com/model-a-ford-clutch-disc-kit-9quot-disc-model-a-b-b7550kt/camid/MDA/cp/JS0R3CHL1120822/

[Brentwood Bob]

What is the oil level in the transmission? Open the filler plug and stick your finger in. You should come out with some on the tip of the finger. 90-140wt should be used. Bob

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by Brentwood Bob

...90-140wt should be used.

Not 600W?

[gweilbaker]

What is your experience with a non-syncro tranny? The Model A is a low RPM beast, like really low. They have grunt coming off idle provided the timing is right. It took me some time to get use to them because I drive newer buggies that like the revs.

[PC/SR]

The clutch is not fully releasing. First check that the pedal play is correct. There should be one inch of free play from the pedal fully at the top until it starts to engage. Adjust this at the trunion linkage that attaches to the release shaft that comes out of the bellhousing. If this is OK, the pressue plate fingers are out of adjustment. That's a tougher job but can be done through the inspection plate. Don't buy the Mac's kit yet for this problem.

[pyroJeff]

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Bob - Last I checked a few weeks ago the fluid level was ok. 90-140wt? I was always told 600w. Which is better to use?

gweilbaker - I am very familiar with the non-syncro tranny and double clutching. my only bad habit is the occasional riding the clutch at a red light.

PC/SR - With the inspection cover off the throw out bearing starts to move at about 1 inch after the clutch is depressed. Any thoughts on adjusting the fingers with the cover off?

Thank you everyone for the responses. All the information is greatly appreciated

[Tom Wesenberg]

600W is the oil to use as it slows the gears better.

Was this clutch working fine, then suddenly you had this problem?

The throw out bearing should start to move as soon as the clutch is pushed, but shouldn't start to move the 6 pressure plate levers until about 1" of pedal movement.

[ford1]

if its a new clutch it might be a chinese one, they are to thick and wont release right, posibily the pilot bearing is frozen to the main shaft, if necessary when stoped go into second then shift into low

[larrys40]

Jeff,
I agree it sounds like your clutch is not releasing. When replacing the cluth you have to adjust the clutch fingers to 5/8" .625 from the top of the clutch cover to the finger. you can use a caliper depth gauge with a straight edge or I use a quick fixture I made to set and adjust them out of wood with a small 5/8 block that rest on the clutch finger. adjust to where it just touches... use a feeler gauge to ensure correct depth. Please note that ALL clutch pressure plates, new or old need to be adjusted. using a new clutch disc will effect the depth as well. The rebuilders really don't set these accurately and as I said, the clutch disc and flywheel can effect the distance. That will ensure that you have a good smooth clutch and that all fingers are contacting at the same time. You have to do this with the transmission out....

However, I have done this with a 3/8 drive socket with a string through it to adjust some fingers in the past. You have to be schooled at this and use the right socket dimension ( they will vary) between the throwout bearing and clutch finger . Do them one at a time and rotate each time for the next finger up. This is not as good as the dial depth or fixture but it will do the job in a pinch if need be.

After all is well with that ( whatever method you use) you can then set your clutch free play to 1-1 1/2 inches. You must ensure that your throwout totally disengages.
Check to make sure your return spring is not sprung and in good shape ( on throwout hub).
Good luck!
Larry S
St. Charles, MO

[Fred K-OR]

Originally Posted by larrys40

Jeff,
I agree it sounds like your clutch is not releasing. When replacing the cluth you have to adjust the clutch fingers to 5/8" .625 from the top of the clutch cover to the finger. you can use a caliper depth gauge with a straight edge or I use a quick fixture I made to set and adjust them out of wood with a small 5/8 block that rest on the clutch finger. adjust to where it just touches... use a feeler gauge to ensure correct depth. Please note that ALL clutch pressure plates, new or old need to be adjusted. using a new clutch disc will effect the depth as well. The rebuilders really don't set these accurately and as I said, the clutch disc and flywheel can effect the distance. That will ensure that you have a good smooth clutch and that all fingers are contacting at the same time. You have to do this with the transmission out....

However, I have done this with a 3/8 drive socket with a string through it to adjust some fingers in the past. You have to be schooled at this and use the right socket dimension ( they will vary) between the throwout bearing and clutch finger . Do them one at a time and rotate each time for the next finger up. This is not as good as the dial depth or fixture but it will do the job in a pinch if need be.

After all is well with that ( whatever method you use) you can then set your clutch free play to 1-1 1/2 inches. You must ensure that your throwout totally disengages.
Check to make sure your return spring is not sprung and in good shape ( on throwout hub).
Good luck!
Larry S
St. Charles, MO

Larry, I am a little confused as to what to check when you mentioned "5/8 from top of clutch cover to the finger". Do you happened to have a picture of this area or is there somewhere I can go to get an idea of what to look for. Sorry, I have never been in this area before and need some good advise. Thanks

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Fred K-OR

Larry, I am a little confused as to what to check when you mentioned "5/8 from top of clutch cover to the finger". Do you happened to have a picture of this area or is there somewhere I can go to get an idea of what to look for. Sorry, I have never been in this area before and need some good advise. Thanks

This isn't the best way to show it, but it should show you how to do the measuring. The GOOD clutch disc needs to be installed and the pressure plate needs to be bolted down to the flywheel, then you measure as shown in the picture. Since I measure from an aluminum bar 3/8" thick I will add that to the 5/8" measurement. So I set my vernier caliper to 1" and use the depth bar at the end to measure. I adjust each finger until it just touches the caliper. You need to remove the upset on the nuts to be able to turn them for adjustment. I restake them after the adjustments.

More important then the exact 5/8" finger depth is the fact that all 6 fingers are the same measurement. Use a good clutch disc when taking the measurements because as the disc wears the fingers raise up. This is why the T/O bearing needs to be adjusted after thousands of miles of clutch use. If the T/O bearing clearance isn't maintained the bearing will run all the time when the fingers raise up enough to touch it. The multiple is just the opposite. As it's clutch discs wear the T/O bearing GAINS clearance.

[PC/SR]

As Tom says, the TO bearing should start to move as soon as you move the clutch, and hit the fingers after one inch of pedal movement. Does the spring on the TO bearing hub return the pedal all the way back to the stop so there is spring pressure all the time on the pedal? Check this first and be sure the spring is in place and is holding the hub as far back as it will go. With the spring is in place, there should not be any play between when you press on the clutch and TO bearing hub starts to move. Check this. If there is play, then crawl under the car, disconnect the adjusting trunion, and be sure the lever on the shaft going into the bellhousing is up as far as it will go by hand so that the fork it moves inside the bell housing contacts the hub. You want the fork in the bellhousing to just contact the TO bearing hub with the clutch pedal fully up. Then adjust the trunion to fit.
Hope this is clear. Others here who know what I am getting at, that the clutch release forks are too far back from the TO hub, may be able to explain it better. I am thinking your clutch just needs to be properly adjusted.
Don't mess with the clutch fingers until everything else is checked and working right. That is rarely needed and absolutely the last thing to do because any changes there are forever.

[gweilbaker]

FYI, I'm including a link from the Ahooga authored by D.J. Voyce about the pressure-plate;
http://www.ahooga.com/notebook/howto/1/howto1.shtml

[PC/SR]

Additional thought: Sometimes the clutch linkage and trunion get worn and there is lots of slop and looseness there. Check it all out. Good Luck

[Brentwood Bob]

600w. but guys run 90-140 w if you dont got the thicker stuff handy. I am more concerned that you had trans oil in place, Bob

[Patrick L.]

I'm kinda assuming that this problem just started ?? What happens if you try to put it in 2nd or 3rd first ?? The clutch arms have been known to crack.. The free-play is correct at 1-1.5" ?? There are many things that can cause problems, pilot bearing, disk and input shaft, pressure plate..

[Tom Wesenberg]

I didn't get an answer to my question, but if it started all of a sudden, then I'd look for a cracked clutch arm.

[Fred K-OR]

Thanks Tom. This does give me a good picture of what to measure.

[pyroJeff]

Thank you everyone for all the information.
Work got crazy and I have not had time to check anything out.
I plan on getting some time tomorrow afternoon and this weekend.

Tom - The clutch was working before. The car sat for 12 years and was recently restored. After a recent day of driving the clutch started to act up. I have about 20 hours of drive time since the car started to be restored.

Patrick - its does the same no matter what gear you try to shift into.

I will update the group later tomorrow.
Again thank you for all the information and help.

Jeff

[pyroJeff]

I adjusted the linkage so the throw out bearing moves as soon as the clutch is pushed, and starts to move the pressure plate levers after about 1" of pedal movement. Unfortunately it is better but still spinning.

I was talking to a old school mechanic who told me to flush the transmission and refill. Since I am unsure what fluid or blend of fluid was now actually in the transmission. I added some old 600w that I got from a buddy. He also recommended that while I was flushing fluids I should flush the rear end. Any suggestions on flushing techniques? Any type of flushing solution or just clean 600w oil?

I was going to pick up so more oil and found that Grainger carries Mobil 600w oil in a five gallon bucket. So if anyone in South East Florida needs some I should have some extra =).

Anyone ever get it from Grainger? They have a few 600w types and wanted to see what everyone thought.

Gear Oil Mobil gear 600 XP 680 5 Gallon $153.50
Item # 4DNH7
Description Gear Oil, Mobilgear 600 XP 680
Brand MOBIL
Mobilgear 600 XP 680
Gear Oil
High Performance
5 gal.
Viscosity Index 90
ISO Viscosity Grade 680
Flash Point (F) 545
Pour Point (F) 15
Characteristics Amber
Application For Conveyors, Agitators, Dryers, Extruders, Fans, Mixers, Presses, Pulpers, Pumps, Screens and Extruders
Standards Flender BA 7300 Table A, AGMA 9005-E02, DIN 51517 Part 3, ISO 1292501 Type, Textron Power Transmission Grade, Mueller Weingarten DT 55 005

Cylinder Oil 600 W Super 5 Gallon Gear Oil $131.50
Item # 4DNJ6
Description Cylinder Oil, 600 W Super
BrandMOBIL
Cylinder Oil
Extra High Performance
5 gal.
Viscosity Index 95
ISO Viscosity Grade 460
Flash Point (F) 539
Pour Point (F) 15
Characteristics Brown
Application For Steam Cylinders, Couplings, Bearings Under High Temperature and Load Conditions

Mobil gear 600 XP 220 5 Gal $146.80
Item # 4DNH4
Description Gear Oil, Mobilgear 600 XP 220
Brand MOBIL
Gear Oil
High Performance
5 gal.
Viscosity Index 97
ISO Viscosity Grade 220
Flash Point (F) 464
Pour Point (F) -11
Characteristics Amber
Application For Conveyors, Agitators, Dryers, Extruders, Fans, Mixers, Presses, Pulpers, Pumps, Screens and Extruders
Standards Flender BA 7300 Table A, AGMA 9005-E02, DIN 51517 Part 3, ISO 1292501 Type, Textron Power Transmission Grade, Mueller Weingarten DT 55 005