21 Stud, How to tell the year

[Rowdy]

Found a bare block 21 stud engine in my recently aquired parts purchase. How do you tell what year it is? Thanks Rod

[ford38v8]

Rod, If it has no vent at the front bottom passenger side oil pan, it is '32-'34.
Block mounted water pumps indicate a '37.
"35-'36 difference harder to pin down, but insert bearings will insure that it is a '36.

If you still need more detail, check this thread on the EFV8 Forum:

http://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/vie...=18&Topic=3585

[Hoop]

""35-'36 difference harder to pin down, but insert bearings will insure that it is a '36."

The time of the introduction of the "LB" engine may be one of the most often confused and repeated (mistakenly) items concerning Ford flathead V-8's.

Most frequently you hear, "36 1/2" or "mid-year 36."

This has been repeated over and over, and it appears so many times that it is accepted as fact. Not surprising since it is hard to find any real information on-line.

Very knowledgeable guys on this board agree that late 1935 is correct with October, 1935, being the true introduction. I wonder if anyone has ABSOLUTE documentation?

Some of the members here have worn there fingers off typing information on this subject and creating excellent posts. This forum has a pretty good SEARCH function ... I'd bet that a lot of folks use it, but those that do not allow information that may be a little off the mark to slip in. (This is not to criticize "ford38v8" ... 99%+ of flathead folks will identify the LB as a 1936.)

Here's an example of what has been posted ... again, by guys who have done some homework. Read "38 Coupe's" posts #14/#15. Excellent.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...ghlight=insert

[Rowdy]

Thanks guys, will be loading the block up this am with a whole bunch of other flathead parts. Will get pic's of the block so I can better compare them when I get home. I do not remeber seeing a breather tube yesterday, but things like that can be overlooked if not looking for it. There was a crank close by that appeared to be cast.. If it is for this engine that will help narrow it down some more. Thanks Rod

[jimTN]

Cast pan would be 32

[Rowdy]

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I will keep my eyes pealed for a cast pan in the pile then. Thanks for the info. Rod

[jerry grayson]

Originally Posted by jimTN

Cast pan would be 32

Cast pan could be early (rare) 33.

[David J]

Good call here as this is indeed rare . I brought the block id thread that the bandaged up guy talked about back up as it pretty well answers these questions . David J

Originally Posted by jerry grayson

Cast pan could be early (rare) 33.

[bobH]

In response to Hoop's post ('the bandaged-up guy), regarding the introduction of the insert-main, large-bearing (LB) block...
First, I'll admit right up front that I have no idea when it was introduced. However, from reading the service bulletins, I think we can 'sort-of' infer a guess.
Starting by looking at the October 1935 service bulletins, the engine is spec-ed as having "Babbit; Integral with cap and case." Journal diameter = 2.0
No mention of an insert-main in the October 1935 service bulletin.
Next service bulletin = November 1935 - No engine spec's.
Next service bulletin = December 1935 - No engine spec's.
Next service bulletin = January 1936 - No engine spec's.
Next service bulletin = February 1936 - The bulletin says "Two types of crankshafts are used on 1936 V-8 engines as shown in Fig. xxx. Main bearing diameters on these two crankshafts are different...... " It goes on to say "To accomodate the wider spacing of the main bearing studs in engines using the larger crankshaft a change in contour has been made in the engine oil pan......"
In response to a (very) old post by (?) David (?), the bulletin goes on to say that a new design oil pump is being supplied for partial production. To use the new pump as a replacement for the 'old' design, it "will be necessary to remove the oil return pipe from the rear main bearing cap when the new design oil pump replaces the previous design".
This same February service bulletin is the one that introduces the two types of heads & pistons - domed, and flat-top.
So, when was the LB put in production??? Some might conclude at the beginning of 1936 production ????????? Other opinions ?? Or, is there more data available ???

[ford38v8]

Playing Devil's Advocate...

Hoop: The '36 went into production in October 1935.
BobH: The Engine first, then the Service Bulletins. The Horse, then the Cart.

Will we ever know for sure?

[Hoop]

"Hoop: The '36 went into production in October 1935."

No, I did not say that.

I said in my post on this thread, "Very knowledgeable guys on this board agree that late 1935 is correct with October, 1935, being the true introduction."

bobH posted, "So, when was the LB put in production??? Some might conclude at the beginning of 1936 production ????????? Other opinions ?? Or, is there more data available ???"

More data? I asked the same question, "I wonder if anyone has ABSOLUTE documentation?"

When did the 1936 Ford start rolling out of the factories, and when was it "introduced" to the public?

When did manufacture of the LB engine begin?

A lot of guys have OPINIONS, but what are the facts?

The Early Ford V8 - As Henry Built It - A production Facts Book 1932-38, Edward P. Francis and George DeAngelis, states, "For 1936, two cylinder blocks were in use. The 1935 block with the cast babbit bearings was continued to the end of 1936 production. In addition, starting in September 1935, a new block with the new main bearing inserts was introduced (68-6010)."

(This information is generally ignored by guys who have this book sitting on their bookshelves.)

So, what does "introduced" mean? When were 1936 Fords "introduced" ... or does "introduced" mean the start of installation into cars during production?

I have my opinions, but I'm trying to work past guessing.

(Edit to add a story

Why is it important to have some good idea about production dates?

Let's say you have come across an early flathead engine, heads on, intake on, transmission attached, looks like it's never been apart. You quickly identify it as a 35/36. It's for sale and reasonable, but it's obvious that the owner has been hard at work trying to clean off the top of the block to find if "LB" is stamped anywhere.

Nothing.

You determine that looking inside for signs of insert bearings, if successful, will tip off the seller and the reasonable (low) price is over. He's figured it is NOT an LB.

You check the transmission for a serial number, find it as the owner had and refer to your little spiral notebook where you keep important phone numbers and stuff like ... serial numbers.

October 1935.

What do you do? You do not need or want another babbitt engine. You do not need or want another pre-39 transmission.

Is it possible (crap shoot) that this could be an LB? But, WAIT, it has an October 1935 serial number and "everyone" says that they "came out" in 1936!

There is no car to indicate what it came out of ... yeah, we're pretty sure it was a '36, but ... that's an October 1935 serial number. (Some guys might think it came out of a '35 ... ?)

Would you buy it and hope it was an LB ... or would you pass?

Remember you have to play a little dumb ... how dumb are you going to be?

[Rowdy]

It has the crank case vent, so not a 32-34. Because of the time it is taking to sort and get the NOS parts out of the other buildings I have not taken the block or other engine parts out yet. More details when I get it out in the daylight. I am about done with building #2 which contains the bulk of the NOS parts. So likely the rest of the of the flathead stuff is next. Then the other 2 building which contain 50's and 60's tail lights and chrome and other misc parts. Then to go back through the rest of the stuff for scrap clean up and done. Lot's of interesting stuff so far. Maybe by Saturday I will be done. Rod