Serial numbers

[Billy 1931 Model A]

Perhaps you can help me: I think my car is a 1931 roadster 40B. It has cowl lights and a rear mounted spare. But the serial number stamped on the engine is A2650230, which would indicate the engine was manufactured in November 1929. The serial number stamped on the frame is not visible. However it must be 1007955, because a few years ago, prior to my ownership, someone riveted a little plaque on the firewall with S/N 1007955. 1007955 would indicate a date of manufacture of February 1929. Can you make sense of these serial numbers?

[A Model A]

The serial number plaque is not original and was added at some point to probably match a title someone had acquired. Fairly common. A2640230 is likely a replacement engine. If you want to ID the year of your car ignore the red herring serial numbers and start to look at components of the car that can point you towards a build date.
What Day Was Your Model A Built; And Why You'll Never Know.
https://youtu.be/JaVjMUkbOwI

[1930artdeco]

My car has a tag from Oregon which has a serial number of the previous engine on it. The riveted tag could be and may be from a previous engine or two and that is what they used for the title. The only way to know for sure is to lift the body.

Mike

[Keith True]

I have two right now that have never had numbers on the frame.To grind the numbers out,you have to take a few thousandths off the frame,and you can see it.One is an early 30 Coupe,and if I remember right that one was assembled in Somerville Mass.That one just has the rear spring code stamped near the rear crossmember.The other is a 31 frame I have under my 30 pickup.That frame was being used as a swinging gate inside of a barn.Smooth frame top,no sign of numbers or grinding.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by Billy 1931 Model A

Perhaps you can help me: I think my car is a 1931 roadster 40B. It has cowl lights and a rear mounted spare. But the serial number stamped on the engine is A2650230, which would indicate the engine was manufactured in November 1929. The serial number stamped on the frame is not visible. However it must be 1007955, because a few years ago, prior to my ownership, someone riveted a little plaque on the firewall with S/N 1007955. 1007955 would indicate a date of manufacture of February 1929. Can you make sense of these serial numbers?

This looks like the classic case of "engine been replaced."

The formed aftermarket plate riveted in place would be acceptable to a NH "VID Inspection." No matter the number showing on the engine.

They don't have to match. At least not in Cow Hampshire.

All NH is looking for is a "Single point of Identification" for a car theft situation. A number "not easily changed." (rivets, welded, bolted in place) A way to restore your titled/registered car to you (a title which SHOULD - but doesn't have to include a VID - NH is a little loose on titling, as we have found in discussion earlier.)

Other states may have other (stronger) requirements. Your VID mileage may vary. That 1930ish AA truck chassis sold to a Texas buyer comes to mind (prior discussion)

Upstairs in my barn I have the "un-numbered" engine block which came with the truck (avatar) It is likely a 1950s era "Allstate" engine probably sold by Sear Roebuck and sourced from un-used Ford surplus (i.e. never numbered as it had never been in a Ford produced car.) It's painted RED (Allstate.)

I have threatened to number this engine 20,000,001 as if it were the car next in line after Ford's "Twenty-Millionth Ford." Which of course anyone looking at it would go NO WAY.

But no. Best I probably should rebuild this engine and number it to match the Avatar frame number - but with engines/chassis so "mixed and matched" during their lives and the looseness of Cow Hampshire on VID/Identification - why bother?

Actually, I'm now thinking of having the red engine rebuild JUST AS IT IS. After all, it is part of a "Truck History" which has its own "uniqueness" in our Automobile History?

I may end up with a Brass plate similar to yours with the frame number on it. Make it "easy" for officialdom to do their "job" - such as it is.

Joe K

[ModelA29]

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Originally Posted by 1930artdeco

The only way to know for sure is to lift the body.

That still will not tell the story. It will only tell you which engine was originally installed in that chassis - if it was indeed stamped (some got missed). If you have a 1929 engine number on the frame and a 1931 body your car was assembled from a pile of parts.

[nkaminar]

You will need to lift the body and take the left front fender off, about half a day's work. You only need to lift it about 4 inches so not all the electrical needs to be disconnected. And you only need to lift about 2 inches in the rear. Then take a photo of the serial number on the frame to show to the good folks at the DMV.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

You will need to lift the body and take the left front fender off, about half a day's work. You only need to lift it about 4 inches so not all the electrical needs to be disconnected. And you only need to lift about 2 inches in the rear. Then take a photo of the serial number on the frame to show to the good folks at the DMV.

Be are to call the DMV first and see if they will take the photo for registration. California used to want to take it to the Highway Patrol for inspection or have it viewed and documented by a police officer.

Charlie Stephens

[Keith True]

While N.H. isn't interested in a frame number,any number they do want to see is eyes-on ONLY.I had repair plates years ago,and could do VIN verifications.It was eyes-on only.No pictures,tracings,rubbings,etc.The DOT officer said he would laugh if somebody presented him with any of that.He'd say,that's nice,now lets look at the number.He said the internet hasn't done the car guys any favors with a lot of that info.He also said that most 12 year olds could replicate anything like that,and do a better job than a picture.

[nkaminar]

The DMV is your friend.

[BButturff]

My late '31 CCP has a replacement block that the original S/N was ground off of and the S/N from the original engine was stamped on to the replacement block. If you can dream it, somebody has done it.

[ModelA29]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

California used to want to take it to the Highway Patrol for inspection or have it viewed and documented by a police officer.

Physical inspection is still required. It used to be done at the DMV office. But they said not enough time you'll need to get the CHP to do it. On occasion they would come to your house if the car wasn't finished. Then it got so you had to make an appointment months in advance and drag it to their office. There was no charge when the state did it. Now if you want it done in a timely fashion you hire a CA licensed vehicle verifier for $775-100 to come look at it.

[Joe K]

In NH when they "verified" the 30ish AA, the female officer came in a cruiser and apologized for blocking the single car driveway.

I suspect she was behind the desk office type in real ife. Uniform, but no weapon.

VERY nice.

I showed her BOTH numbers (engine, frame) and described the current modus about "exchanged engines" and how that could affect which number is used. The AA was "body free" at this point.

"So which number do you want to use?" (apparently asking not realizing that the numbers were "matching.")

"Lets use the engine number since the frame will eventually be covered by the body."

"OK - THAT will be the number henceforth." She worked with a flashlight carefully determining each digit in turn and then looking for my verification.

As I said above, she didn't care where exactly the number was as long as it was "permanently attached" to the car/chassis.

But that is Cow Hampshire. Your state animal and modus may vary.

(Cow is "unofficial" state animal. The official NH animal is a White Tailed Deer.)

Wot a tool this Internet. All the arcane information you want at no more than five keystokes (autocomplete "on".)

Joe K

[WTSHNN]

Originally Posted by Billy 1931 Model A

Perhaps you can help me: I think my car is a 1931 roadster 40B.

Are you trying to determine when your car was built for your own knowledge and or trivia? Or for registration and licensing?

If it is for your own knowledge buy the judging standards and begin looking at little details on your car to see if you can find an approximate build date.

If your question is for some sort of government related confirmation it'd help to know what state you're located in and what exactly you're needing to accomplish.

That being said the body of your car is definitely a '30/'31.

-Tim

[Keith True]

N.H. only started doing the VIN verification thing a few years ago.And,that's only on vehicles that have no paper to start with.If you have an old registration,you can register with that and a bill of sale from anybody.The state does not have a big interest in being strict on old cars.Antique registration pays the state 50 cents per month,6 bucks per year.That may have gone up a little,I haven't paid any attention.The town clerk gets whatever the town has set for rates,I think it's $9.or $10 in my town.We supposedly have an ordinance that we can't have more than two unregistered vehicles in the yard.About 35 years ago I was informed I would have to do something about it.So,I registered 12 antique vehicles,and was in compliance.No insurance required here to register cars.I'm 700 feet off the road through the woods,so it's not like I am seen.

[John D]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

Be are to call the DMV first and see if they will take the photo for registration. California used to want to take it to the Highway Patrol for inspection or have it viewed and documented by a police officer.

Charlie Stephens

Texas also requires a physical inspection of the vehicle. Photos are not accepted. My inspection is scheduled for 4-8.

After the inspection the title paperwork will be processed.