Flywheel Housing Question/Opinions

[rackops]

Tossing this question out for feedback from the group (scary, I know!)

I just bought a Burtz short block and new flywheel for my 1931 Victoria. I have a Diamond B block in there now and it has been a fine engine, but it was rebuilt maybe 15 years ago (before I bought the car) and I want to "future-proof" my car as a solid driver (not daily driver, but I do like driving it).

I surprised myself by not having a spare flywheel housing in my collection (thought I did) and the housing on the car now does have a crack in it, so it's time to buy a good one and change it out.

Looking on Snyder's website, I was put into mild shock by the $525 price tags of the iron and aluminum new production ones. I searched on here and found the thread where Terry Burtz mentioned his new production ones. I reached out to John and he told me that they are expected in May.

So, my choices are:

1. Buy an aluminum new-made one
2. Buy an iron new-made one
3. Try to find a non-cracked original
4. Wait till May (hopefully) and buy a Burtz one.

I was hoping to have the engine in my car and everything wrapped up before May (even before April) so waiting another month or two is a bummer. As has been mentioned on here before, buying a used one is kind of playing roulette...you buy a few and hope to find a good one.

Or, I could just throw in the towel, bite the bullet, and buy one from Snyders (though the price tag is painful!). If I were to do that, then I have the choice: aluminum or iron?

For some background, my Victoria is completely stock aside from the Diamond B block, and I plan on keeping it stock, save for the Burtz engine, Burtz head, and Burtz flywheel. Everything else is "as original" with no obvious modifications or upgrades (maybe Touring Class judging in the future, we'll see...)

Thanks for your opinions!

Dave

[Joe K]

Antique auto flea market in Epping NH prices for uncracked run $40-60 each.

You test by hanging it on a wire from one of the inner holes, and "hitting it" with a small metal or larger mallet hammer. Cracked becomes very evident by this method.


Joe K

[Y-Blockhead]

One of the things I like about the Burtz design, other than being reinforced at cracking points, is they machine in a groove for an "O" ring around the camshaft, a known source of an oil leak. Of course I suppose you could have a Snyder's or even a good original machined for an "O" ring also.

[JayJay]

I’ve found that even uncracked originals tend to be warped in excess of the (I think) 0.003” spec. I have had housings resurfaced, but here in Northern CA it’s generally a couple of hours labor to do that. So you are left with a 90+ year old casting that you’ve invested $300 into. I had a look at the new Burtz casting at Turlock and it is impressive. They could not quote a price but the implication is that it will be very price-competitive with the current Snyder’s offering.

I don’t think there’s an easy answer. If you want it now you will need to find an original and surface it if necessary. Or buy one from Snyder’s (I would go steel, there’s quite a bit of rotational stress on that part and steel work-deforms less than aluminum). If you can wait I’d say go for a Burtz housing.

BTW, I sold two housings at Turlock for $40 each.

BTW, consider a hotter cam to match that head. Or are you buying a Burtz short block, which (I think) includes a Burtz cam?

[Flathead]

Snyder's may be made in this country, which could explain the pricing.

[ModelA29]

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Originally Posted by rackops

I just bought a Burtz short block and new flywheel for my 1931 Victoria.
4. Wait till May (hopefully) and buy a Burtz one.

Option 4 - take your time with the assembly when it's done the flywheel housing will arrive. They aren't using slow boats from China anymore.

[alexiskai]

Dave, I have a couple of housings that are on engines in storage right now. I need to tear them down to see if the housing is good, but if one is good I'd be happy to sell it to you for whatever the going rate is. I've gotten them surfaced for <$100 here in NC.

[Joe K]

As to "surfacing," its probably a good thing, but I've had luck with the brass "washers" used at the mounting ears to "distort" and bring the flange into annularity.

One uses a magnetic dial gauge extending from the crankshaft flange.

Joe K

[rackops]

Thanks all!

@alexiskai - might take you up on that offer. Otherwise, I'll probably just end up waiting for the Burtz one. In all likelihood, with how busy my work schedule is right now, I'll end up waiting for a few months before I can have enough breathing room to change things out (I never _think_ it's going to be as busy as it gets...and then it gets even busier!)

Dave

[nkaminar]

I think the new flywheel housings are worth waiting for. At least that is what I am going to do.

[alexiskai]

Until just recently, Model A engines that had reached the end of a lifecycle and needed to be rebuilt were often simply swapped out for another engine that still had life in it. The worn out block would usually be saved, either by its owner or by a hobbyist with hoarder tendencies, on the rationale that "they're not making these any more." Many hobbyists with sufficient garage space ended up with 5, 10, or more worn out blocks this way.

When the Burtz block became available, the market value of these blocks cratered. The cost to rebuild them was close enough to the cost to acquire a brand new block that it no longer made sense for many owners to do so, especially given the wait time at reputable rebuilding shops and the advantages of the new engine. Consequently, blocks from estates or blocks that would in the past have wound up at swap meets are more likely to simply be scrapped. This has most likely decreased the overall supply of blocks, with the blocks in the worst condition being those most likely to be scrapped.

Recent geopolitical instability has raised the salience of the fact that, at some uncertain point in the future, the supply of Burtz blocks will probably cease. When that happens, owners needing a rebuilt engine will be back where they were before the new engine was available – scrounging for an available good engine or paying to have one rebuilt. There's no way to know what the supply of rebuildable blocks will be like at that time. Certainly it's possible that so many original blocks will have been scrapped by then that rebuildable ones will be quite scarce.

The point of this story is that this cycle may also occur with flywheel housings once the Burtz housing is available. If demand for original housings craters, some proportion of the housings now in the hands of collectors will be scrapped despite being in restorable condition (i.e., not cracked). And if, in the future, the supply of Burtz housings dries up, there will again be demand for originals among those who don't want to pay $600 for a reproduction.

All of which is to say, I would encourage those in possession of good original flywheel housings to hang onto them if possible and not assume that the supply of a superior reproduction product will continue indefinitely.

[Bruce of MN]

Good point. What will our heirs do with these parts other than basically giving them to whoever from your club will come over and haul them away? The recent auction in Luray had a lot of buyers, but if your stash is small, the interest would be low.

[updraught]

Probably 5 out of 6 blocks would have been scrapped anyway due to rust, cracks etc. same with flywheel housings. Rubbish blocks are probably kept for the spare bits on them that may be needed in future (Burtz included).

[nkaminar]

Two things:

In the 1960's people would give me perfectly good engines. When an engine got tired, I would just swap it out.

I have the original engine to my car in my basement shop. It is in usable shape and will go with the car when I die and my heirs sell the car. Mounted on the engine is a good flywheel housing.

[Wick]

In the past when I would run across a engine sitting in the corner of a barn or garage I would grab it.
Everyone of those engines ran good. One engine was std. Bore and looked new inside, turned out #4 water jacket was still full of casting material. People saved engines for a reason, right now I have 3
engines that were stored for 60+ years that I will start this spring.

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

Until just recently, Model A engines that had reached the end of a lifecycle and needed to be rebuilt were often simply swapped out for another engine that still had life in it. The worn out block would usually be saved, either by its owner or by a hobbyist with hoarder tendencies, on the rationale that "they're not making these any more." Many hobbyists with sufficient garage space ended up with 5, 10, or more worn out blocks this way.

When the Burtz block became available, the market value of these blocks cratered. The cost to rebuild them was close enough to the cost to acquire a brand new block that it no longer made sense for many owners to do so, especially given the wait time at reputable rebuilding shops and the advantages of the new engine. Consequently, blocks from estates or blocks that would in the past have wound up at swap meets are more likely to simply be scrapped. This has most likely decreased the overall supply of blocks, with the blocks in the worst condition being those most likely to be scrapped.

Recent geopolitical instability has raised the salience of the fact that, at some uncertain point in the future, the supply of Burtz blocks will probably cease. When that happens, owners needing a rebuilt engine will be back where they were before the new engine was available – scrounging for an available good engine or paying to have one rebuilt. There's no way to know what the supply of rebuildable blocks will be like at that time. Certainly it's possible that so many original blocks will have been scrapped by then that rebuildable ones will be quite scarce.

The point of this story is that this cycle may also occur with flywheel housings once the Burtz housing is available. If demand for original housings craters, some proportion of the housings now in the hands of collectors will be scrapped despite being in restorable condition (i.e., not cracked). And if, in the future, the supply of Burtz housings dries up, there will again be demand for originals among those who don't want to pay $600 for a reproduction.

All of which is to say, I would encourage those in possession of good original flywheel housings to hang onto them if possible and not assume that the supply of a superior reproduction product will continue indefinitely.

alexiskai,

Thanks for your comments.

You are correct in stating the supply of Burtz parts will cease at some point.

I encourage everyone to avoid scrapping original parts because they will become treasures when Burtz parts are no longer available. If you don't have indoor storage, just let them sit outside.

Geopolitical events are small compared to recent inflation in the USA. China's inflation is very low. We have not raised the price of our parts since their introduction.

We are a small team consisting of me (engineer), John Lampl (manufacturing, QA, sales), Bill Percival (finance), and Steve Schobelock (advertising)

I'm 80 years old, and John is younger.

Nobody can predict the future.