Found damage to block and head

[BarryBrosRacing]

I ran into a problem today on my 31 Model A 4 banger.

I found a that a piece of the head surface was chipped away between the head stud hole and one of the combustion chamber areas. The same area is shown on the head gasket.

Additionally I found a small crack in the head between a head stud hole and a water passage.

My plan for this engine was just a cosmetic upgrade including new gaskets, studs, and a cleanup.

If I bolt it back together how much life can I expect out of it? Any fixes for this?

Unfortunately this is the block that matches the title.

[stevests]

If you are familiar with Belzona epoxy, it would be a permanent repair BUT it's quite expensive & that small repair area wouldn't warrant the expense.

[JayJay]

A very experienced welder should be able to braze that, followed by decking the block. You will need to pull the engine and likely disassemble it so the block can be pre-heated. If it was mine I'd be tempted to either leave it or try high temp JB Weld, followed by careful flat filing. Use a graphite head gasket like the Best 509G with copper spray, I think it's more likely to conform to any microscopic surface irregularity than a solid copper gasket.

The head - that looks terminal to me, or at least not putting much in the way of resources into fixing. You could use this opportunity to put a high compression head on it. Lots of discussion of HC heads here on the Barn.

[nkaminar]

Jay Jay and I were typing at the same time. We both have the same response.

The crack in the head is common and many run them without repair. But, as Jay Jay said, you will be miles ahead with a 5.5 head from Snyders.

However the divot in the block must be repaired. The Belzona epoxy may be overkill. JB Weld may do the trick. I would put a stud in the hole that is smeared with a light coating of grease or soap so that the epoxy will not stick to it. Clean the divot thoroughly with a final wipe with acetone. Fill the divot with the JB Weld. Do not use the quick cure version of JB Weld. After it has cured for 24 hours or more, sand down the surface with wet and dry paper wrapped around a flat file or flat piece of metal. Use progressively finer grit ending with 220. Then remove he stud and clean up the threaded hole with an #11 X-acto knife.

Brazing and welding are options but you will have to completely disassemble the engine. There are some modern welding rods that will do a good job of welding to cast iron. Locate a welder who had experience with this kind of repair. The bock will have to be decked after the repair.

I agree with Jay Jay on the Best brand graphite gasket and copper spay gasket sealer.

I have the original engine to my car in my basement shop and a Burtz block in the car. I stamped the Burtz block with the serial number of the car using original stamps. Depending on what your plans are for the car, the Burtz block may be a good option.

[nkaminar]

It looks like the threaded hole in the block may have a helical coil insert and that may be the source of the problem. If the insert is in poor condition, it need to be replaced.

[Dan McEachern]

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I would suggest putting 2-3 crack repair pins along side the head stud hole. The pins could be partially in the combustion chamber, but it looks like there is enough space to locate them just outboard of the stud thread. Certainly do not attempt to weld it.

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

It looks like the threaded hole in the block may have a helical coil insert and that may be the source of the problem. If the insert is in poor condition, it need to be replaced.

Good catch, Eagle Eyes. I missed that insert.

[Ordsgt]

I had a similiar issue with an engine and whoever put the helicoil in did so improperly and the top of the block was chipped out like yours. The local machine shop put a helicoil repair in which is larger than the helicoil and after installation it looked good. To do the repair I had to drop the pan, oil pump and unbolt the rods then push pistons to TDC and reinstall rod caps but not on the crank. I am trying to find pics but so far only found the before.

[oldspert]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

It looks like the threaded hole in the block may have a helical coil insert and that may be the source of the problem. If the insert is in poor condition, it need to be replaced.

If it is a helicoil, it probably was not vertical to the block. If not, then it was not exactly centered with the original thread. this could have caused the head crack and the chip in the block. Maybe the original person tried to straighten the stud by hammering it to make it vertical.
Ed

[BarryBrosRacing]

i’ll look at it again tomorrow, i didn’t notice a heli coil there today

[Model A Canuck]

Looks like alot of corrosion on the tops of those cylinders too

[nkaminar]

The best way to put inserts in the block, any kind of inserts, is to use an old head as a drill guide.

[Bruce of MN]

This was my experience with block inserts:

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...rt#post1997462

[J and M Machine]

For the block repair..as others have said you could use an epoxy to fix that.
Cylinder head can be metal stitched and then resurfaced.
There may be other cracks in the head so you'd have to check.

Something that Every model A goes through.
https://www.jandm-machine.com/crack_repair.html

[Gary WA]

Put it together an Drive It!

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

The best way to put inserts in the block, any kind of inserts, is to use an old head as a drill guide.

Yes, as long as it is a tight fit between the hole in the head and the drill bit you are using. I’ve found that head holes, being cast, vary a bit in diameter. So each time I’ve had to do this I’ve made up a drill guide from some round stock.

[BarryBrosRacing]

I looked at it again today. There is a heli coil in the damaged stud holes. I found 2 other heli coils as well.

Should I leave the heli coil in the hole and do the JB Weld repair?

[nkaminar]

Insert a stud and then take a square and see if it stands straight up. If it does, then you can leave the Helicoil in the block if it is in good condition. If not then you should redrill and retap the hole for a larger insert using a drill guide (old head). See post #8 where Orgsgt talked about a Helicoil repair. There are a number of inserts available and I would go with one that is not much larger than the original Helicoil insert.

To remove the old Helicoil, grab it with a pair of needle nose pliers and wind it out.

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

To remove the old Helicoil, grab it with a pair of needle nose pliers and wind it out.

You might want to fill that hole with penetrating oil and let it sit overnight before you unwind the old HeliCoil.

Timesert might be a good choice for a replacement insert, just be sure to countersink properly or file the insert to the surface of the block.

[BarryBrosRacing]

Thanks guys great info!