The Ford Barn

Fredb_ · 04-05-2023, 12:29 PM

I had a hell of a time getting these two bolts installed on my 5 window body. It's an original steel body with some repairs sitting on a modern TCI chassis. I'm assuming TCI has their act together enough to have the width locations pretty close and I suppose the fact that I got them installed says allot.

My question for those familiar with the 32 would be this. Is it common to get a slight "spread" to the front lower part of the body since there is nothing really holding it in place until you get it onto the frame? The passenger side bolt wasn't too bad to get started but the driver side required using wood bar clamps to pull it in about a quarter of an inch to get the bolt started and it didn't move easily.

Newc · 04-05-2023, 12:53 PM

Those cowl bolts clamp down the cowl over the firewall rubber. Commonly exposed shank. Experts will respond Newc

Krylon32 · 04-05-2023, 01:19 PM

Ive' done close to probably 50 deuce bodies both original and Brookville on my reproduction frames. Without the angled/dimpled recess in the frame where the cowl bolt goes they have been a problem to get started. I usually do a little judicial die grinder work on the cowl bracket to make them work. I always wondered why when they were going to all the work of making the rail dies they didn't take a little more time to make the dimple. I have taken the time in the past to make the dimple in the customer chassis I built but on most of them I left the rails flat.

DavidG · 04-05-2023, 01:32 PM

I have not encountered that misalignment problem with any '32 body that I have taken off its frame. However, I have only worked with stock firewalls and stock frames. Judging from your photo, the villain in your case may be what appears to he a heavily modified firewall or as Newc suggests, a reproduction rubber welting separating the firewall and the cowl (the reproductions are thicker than the originals).

As for the holes in the frame. I checked three original frames and those holes are 11/16" on center from the outer edge of the frame. Further, an original frame has a outward sloping indentation around those holes suggesting that the shanks of the installed bolts are not perfectly vertical when in a tightened position.

Krylon32 · 04-05-2023, 02:07 PM

David: I may have misspoke, I have always called them dimples?

DavidG · 04-05-2023, 02:13 PM

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I wish I had thought of "dimples" as that's a lot simpler than "outward sloping indentation".

Fredb_ · 04-05-2023, 04:20 PM

Thanks for the replies. Yes DavidG it is a reproduction firewall not stock. I have had the body on and off several times and even with the firewall out these holes are off enough to be a problem. The threads provided do seem to tilt slightly outward which does help and as Krylon32 has stated I will probably open the cowl bracket a small amount to help in the final assembly.

Another question I thought of. This TCI frame has another threaded hole just forward of the cowl bolt. I believe it's another 3/8" hole and visible in these photos. Any thoughts on what that was intended for?
Thanks again for the help.

Krylon32 · 04-05-2023, 04:45 PM

All stock and most good reproduction firewalls have what is called a foot on each side. These feet have 3 holes on each side. The center hole is for your cowl bolt and the ones on each side of the cowl bolt are to secure the firewall to the frame. On the 100's of reproduction 32 chassis I built the cowl bolt used a 3/8th weld nut and the other 2 were 5/16th.

DavidG · 04-05-2023, 04:49 PM

On an original '32 frame, the subject holes are just holes as separate nuts and lock washers are used with those bolts for the tabs on the cowl sides. The same goes for the two 3/8-24 x 3/4" bolts for the feet of the firewall on each side which straddle the hole for cowl bolt.

Also on an original frame those two cowl bolts are 7/16-20 x 2 1/4"

Krylon32 · 04-05-2023, 05:48 PM

I have no idea why the reproduction rails were built with the 3/8th and 5/16th holes for the firewall and all the rest of the body mount holes are 3/8th. I suspect it was done to make it easier. I've never lost a body off the frame yet using 3/8th bolts.

Flathead Fever · 04-05-2023, 06:29 PM

Like others said, it might be that work done to the firewall keeping the bolts spread a part. If that frame is boxed and those nuts welded on inside, you definitely do not want to screwup the threads. I've watched them weld TCI frames in person and they are all jig welded so the body should fit but you never know. I just have experience with original frames and original bodies, plus one Brookville '32 roadster body and all its holes perfectly lined up with the frame holes.

Like David said, the originals are a lot easier because your just sticking the bolt through a hole and then starting the nut from below.

Flathead Fever · 04-05-2023, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidG

On an original '32 frame, the subject holes are just holes as separate nuts and lock washers are used with those bolts for the tabs on the cowl sides. The same goes for the two 3/8-24 x 3/4" bolts for the feet of the firewall on each side which straddle the hole for cowl bolt.

Also on an original frame those two cowl bolts are 7/16-20 x 2 1/4"

I have a question for you. I had a neighbor with a '32 3-window, original body on a TCI frame., Anyway on these bolts were talking about he put a spring under the bolt head like they do on the radiators, so it allows some movement, so the parts don't crack. I've seen a couple of people do that on those cowl bolts. I'm seen plenty of bodies with those feet broken off suggesting they could have used a spring like that. I have a pickup cab with one broken cowl mounting foot. He swore they came that way from the factory. I've looked at cars that have never had their bodies off and there are no springs. I'm pretty sure he was wrong, but I thought would consult the expert.

Don't those original bolts pull at a slight angle so it pulls the cowl up against the gasket for a tight seal. A nut welded flat on a TCI frame would change that. If they dimpled the frame at an angle and then welded the nut that would solve the problem.

mercguy · 04-05-2023, 07:39 PM

David is right. The 7/16 bolt is sitting at a slight angle to the frame. I have a original
2dr 3w and 5w all with original firewalls, (dash). All have bolts at a slight angle. My
brookville 3w body sits on a original frame. Same issue. The reproduction rubber
cowl seal is some what thicker then the original. When installing the body on a boxed
frame I would recommend enlarging the hole in the firewall feet slightly. The other
option is to cut a hole in the frame boxing plate big enough to get a flanged nut and wrench inside. That will allow you to use the original style bolt.
inside the frame.

Krylon32 · 04-05-2023, 08:37 PM

When I started building frames back in the 70's we only boxed the rails front and rear. The commercially available (P&J"S) front plates went from the front crossmember to the back edge of the firewall feet. They had a slot in them to access a nut on the cowl bolt.

DavidG · 04-05-2023, 09:57 PM

Ford did add a spring to one of the body-to-frame bolts on some of the body types, but it was at the very rear of the body, not at the cowl. Between the road conditions in some locales and some flexing of the frame, strain occurred on both sides of the joint between the lower back panels and quarter panels on cabriolets, coupes, and roadsters to eventually split the sheet metal. The photo below shows the substitute rear-most body-to-frame attachment to alleviate the stress.

There was also some cowl stress directly below the windshield posts on closed cars which in the extreme led to cracks in the sheet metal. No alteration of the attachments to the frame took place in the cowl area, rather formed reinforcements were spot welded inside the cowls at the junction of the windshield posts.

Both of these signs of stress are rare in surviving '32s in my experience, but there are a few examples out there.

Fredb_ · 04-06-2023, 12:23 PM

OK, so it's for the stock style foot that is on both front and back of the firewall. Makes sense. My repo firewall has a bracket on the back side only.

deuce_roadster · 04-06-2023, 01:16 PM

The remake rubber is MUCH harder than the original which also causes problems with firewalls. On my 2 32s, I cleaned nice original rubber parts with enamel reducer and used them with zero problems. Much softer rubber.

34pickup · 04-06-2023, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krylon32

I have taken the time in the past to make the dimple in the customer chassis I built but on most of them I left the rails flat.

If you don't mind, could you explain how you made the dimple on a reproduction frame?

Krylon32 · 04-06-2023, 06:59 PM

I would cut the rails on 3 sides work the area between the cuts down like the stock dimple and tig weld the cuts and metal finish the welds. Most of the time it did the job although it may have not been precisely like the original dimple? I didn't do very many that way. I have no pictures.

04-05-2023, 12:53 PM	#2
Newc Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,912	Re: Another 32 Ford question Those cowl bolts clamp down the cowl over the firewall rubber. Commonly exposed shank. Experts will respond Newc

04-05-2023, 01:19 PM	#3
Krylon32 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 5,170	Re: Another 32 Ford question Ive' done close to probably 50 deuce bodies both original and Brookville on my reproduction frames. Without the angled/dimpled recess in the frame where the cowl bolt goes they have been a problem to get started. I usually do a little judicial die grinder work on the cowl bracket to make them work. I always wondered why when they were going to all the work of making the rail dies they didn't take a little more time to make the dimple. I have taken the time in the past to make the dimple in the customer chassis I built but on most of them I left the rails flat.

04-05-2023, 01:32 PM	#4
DavidG Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: southeastern Michigan Posts: 10,601	Re: Another 32 Ford question I have not encountered that misalignment problem with any '32 body that I have taken off its frame. However, I have only worked with stock firewalls and stock frames. Judging from your photo, the villain in your case may be what appears to he a heavily modified firewall or as Newc suggests, a reproduction rubber welting separating the firewall and the cowl (the reproductions are thicker than the originals). As for the holes in the frame. I checked three original frames and those holes are 11/16" on center from the outer edge of the frame. Further, an original frame has a outward sloping indentation around those holes suggesting that the shanks of the installed bolts are not perfectly vertical when in a tightened position.

04-05-2023, 02:07 PM	#5
Krylon32 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 5,170	Re: Another 32 Ford question David: I may have misspoke, I have always called them dimples?

04-05-2023, 02:13 PM	#6
DavidG Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: southeastern Michigan Posts: 10,601	Re: Another 32 Ford question Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I wish I had thought of "dimples" as that's a lot simpler than "outward sloping indentation".

04-05-2023, 04:20 PM	#7
Fredb_ Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Coos Bay, OR Posts: 648	Re: Another 32 Ford question Thanks for the replies. Yes DavidG it is a reproduction firewall not stock. I have had the body on and off several times and even with the firewall out these holes are off enough to be a problem. The threads provided do seem to tilt slightly outward which does help and as Krylon32 has stated I will probably open the cowl bracket a small amount to help in the final assembly. Another question I thought of. This TCI frame has another threaded hole just forward of the cowl bolt. I believe it's another 3/8" hole and visible in these photos. Any thoughts on what that was intended for? Thanks again for the help.

04-05-2023, 04:45 PM	#8
Krylon32 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 5,170	Re: Another 32 Ford question All stock and most good reproduction firewalls have what is called a foot on each side. These feet have 3 holes on each side. The center hole is for your cowl bolt and the ones on each side of the cowl bolt are to secure the firewall to the frame. On the 100's of reproduction 32 chassis I built the cowl bolt used a 3/8th weld nut and the other 2 were 5/16th.

04-05-2023, 04:49 PM	#9
DavidG Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: southeastern Michigan Posts: 10,601	Re: Another 32 Ford question On an original '32 frame, the subject holes are just holes as separate nuts and lock washers are used with those bolts for the tabs on the cowl sides. The same goes for the two 3/8-24 x 3/4" bolts for the feet of the firewall on each side which straddle the hole for cowl bolt. Also on an original frame those two cowl bolts are 7/16-20 x 2 1/4" Last edited by DavidG; 04-05-2023 at 04:54 PM.

04-05-2023, 05:48 PM	#10
Krylon32 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 5,170	Re: Another 32 Ford question I have no idea why the reproduction rails were built with the 3/8th and 5/16th holes for the firewall and all the rest of the body mount holes are 3/8th. I suspect it was done to make it easier. I've never lost a body off the frame yet using 3/8th bolts.

04-05-2023, 06:29 PM	#11
Flathead Fever Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Yucaipa, CA Posts: 1,360	Re: Another 32 Ford question Like others said, it might be that work done to the firewall keeping the bolts spread a part. If that frame is boxed and those nuts welded on inside, you definitely do not want to screwup the threads. I've watched them weld TCI frames in person and they are all jig welded so the body should fit but you never know. I just have experience with original frames and original bodies, plus one Brookville '32 roadster body and all its holes perfectly lined up with the frame holes. Like David said, the originals are a lot easier because your just sticking the bolt through a hole and then starting the nut from below.

04-05-2023, 07:39 PM	#13
mercguy Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 40	Re: Another 32 Ford question David is right. The 7/16 bolt is sitting at a slight angle to the frame. I have a original 2dr 3w and 5w all with original firewalls, (dash). All have bolts at a slight angle. My brookville 3w body sits on a original frame. Same issue. The reproduction rubber cowl seal is some what thicker then the original. When installing the body on a boxed frame I would recommend enlarging the hole in the firewall feet slightly. The other option is to cut a hole in the frame boxing plate big enough to get a flanged nut and wrench inside. That will allow you to use the original style bolt. inside the frame.

04-05-2023, 08:37 PM	#14
Krylon32 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 5,170	Re: Another 32 Ford question When I started building frames back in the 70's we only boxed the rails front and rear. The commercially available (P&J"S) front plates went from the front crossmember to the back edge of the firewall feet. They had a slot in them to access a nut on the cowl bolt.

04-06-2023, 12:23 PM	#16
Fredb_ Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Coos Bay, OR Posts: 648	Re: Another 32 Ford question OK, so it's for the stock style foot that is on both front and back of the firewall. Makes sense. My repo firewall has a bracket on the back side only.

04-06-2023, 01:16 PM	#17
deuce_roadster Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Shelton, WA Posts: 3,971	Re: Another 32 Ford question The remake rubber is MUCH harder than the original which also causes problems with firewalls. On my 2 32s, I cleaned nice original rubber parts with enamel reducer and used them with zero problems. Much softer rubber.

04-06-2023, 06:59 PM	#19
Krylon32 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 5,170	Re: Another 32 Ford question I would cut the rails on 3 sides work the area between the cuts down like the stock dimple and tig weld the cuts and metal finish the welds. Most of the time it did the job although it may have not been precisely like the original dimple? I didn't do very many that way. I have no pictures.