The Ford Barn

bnchief · 11-08-2016, 06:50 AM

First off let me state that i have read the search and threads on float a motor but i have a few questions.

1. i am using a napa fan belt 43" with the toothed style withe the front motor mounting(not stock) the crank case pulley is close enough to the cross member that i cannot get the fan belt on even though i do not have the float a motor bolts tightened down.

2. I believe the motor sits down too low in the front Is there a number of degrees the engine should tilt up at the front for the correct angle for drive line? ( i have the ability to machine whatever thickness of spacer i might need)

3. I am also using float a motor mounts in the rear as well as the transmission mounts

4. the engine does not seem to be quite centered but I will check that with a crank lug nut wrench.

So has anybody ran into this? Since this is my first model a this is new to me however the flat head in my 37 ford is pretty much mounted like this.

I know there are plenty of pros and cons on float a motors mine is the kit from brattons.

SeaSlugs · 11-08-2016, 07:18 AM

how do you have a trans mount?

bnchief · 11-08-2016, 07:28 AM

It is the one that comes with the kit that brattons sell bolts on to the universal joint go to brattons look up the float a motor kit 75.00 print or look at pdf instructions it will show it installed.

Jacksonlll · 11-08-2016, 07:33 AM

Don't know what you are using for the front mount, but it sounds like the front of the motor is just too low. Must be more to it than that.

bnchief · 11-08-2016, 07:40 AM

I am using the front motor mount that comes with the kit bratton sells, I may have to put the original back on and check and measure the clearance that would help answer my my question but not sure how the back float a motor brackets affect the front.

Keith True · 11-08-2016, 08:39 AM

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If you are using what some call the B front mount,and the side floaters,and the trans rear mount it can be a lot of problems.with that somewhat fixed B front mount the front of the engine is fixed to one spot.Then if you mount the rear mount it will either try to lift the rear of the engine or force it down,depending on the condition of the frame and the amount of rubber you put under the front mount.I fixed one where the engine was being supported on each end by the mounts,and was trying to pull the side mounts up in the air.If you insist on using all three mounts you will need to set the engine,and shim the mounts until they all slide into place freely,and you can put all the bolts in with your fingers.I think 3 mounts on that 4 foot unit is too rigid for such a flexible frame.

Ray in La Mesa · 11-08-2016, 08:41 AM

I used the stock front mount with the Float-O-Motor rear & trans mounts. Everything lined up great. There is some adjustment in the front stock mount.

tbirdtbird · 11-08-2016, 09:24 AM

few use the front mount included with the FAM kit.
Those that do have various problems.

I have removed several front FAM mounts for clients and replaced with a stock yoke type mount and all the problems disappeared, including nasty engine vibration.

Henry knew what he was doing

Benson · 11-08-2016, 09:35 AM

Quote:
"2. I believe the motor sits down too low in the front Is there a number of degrees the engine should tilt up at the front for the correct angle for drive line? ( I have the ability to machine whatever thickness of spacer i might need)"

3 degrees...

I tried Float a Motor engine mounts 50 years ago.

I went back to originals. Engine runs smoothly without all of the problems of using FAMs ...

Other things cause vibrations: Like poorly balanced engine builds.
A fan blade that is out of balance will really shake the whole car for instance...

BILL WILLIAMSON · 11-08-2016, 10:01 AM

With Minervas' front & rear FLOAT-A-MOTORS, I had to add 2 large flat washers, above the front biscuits, to align the crank goody. Pulleys being too low to change the belt easily, is a COMMON PROBLEM, even with stock mounts.
Even Henry would "approve" FLOAT-A-MOTORS!!! Modern cars would sound like CRAP, if not mounted on RUBBER!!!
Bill Hummmn!

Keith True · 11-08-2016, 10:32 AM

Every floater mount problem I have seen was created by wrong installation.I fixed a couple of the front mounts,they were installed with the wrong heighth rubber,direct metal to metal contact through the mounting bolts,wrong size holes in the crossmember,holes in the wrong spots,and then just pulling the whole thing down with the bolts because the instructions said to.I did look at one old set of directions and it showed installing the bolts up from the bottom,with no rubber under it.The owner said,well,that's how the directions say to do it.Directions were wrong.The object is to isolate the engine from the frame.Directions written by a guy sitting in an office in South America are not always accurate.

Licensed to kill · 11-08-2016, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnchief

First off let me state that i have read the search and threads on float a motor but i have a few questions.

1. i am using a napa fan belt 43" with the toothed style withe the front motor mounting(not stock) the crank case pulley is close enough to the cross member that i cannot get the fan belt on even though i do not have the float a motor bolts tightened down.

2. I believe the motor sits down too low in the front Is there a number of degrees the engine should tilt up at the front for the correct angle for drive line? ( i have the ability to machine whatever thickness of spacer i might need)

3. I am also using float a motor mounts in the rear as well as the transmission mounts

4. the engine does not seem to be quite centered but I will check that with a crank lug nut wrench.

So has anybody ran into this? Since this is my first model a this is new to me however the flat head in my 37 ford is pretty much mounted like this.

I know there are plenty of pros and cons on float a motors mine is the kit from brattons.

The "degree's" of angle is not all that important. What IS important is that the trans output and Rear pinion are parallel so the degree's of angle of the joints on each end are the same. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmV4qwLfOMY

Art Newland · 11-08-2016, 11:10 AM

Not sure how this works with a closed drive-line with no rear u-joint. Just aligning the trans/torque-tube to be as straight as possible?

CarlG · 11-08-2016, 04:23 PM

I have stock motor mounts, front and rear. Still have to jack the engine up a tad to get the belt on.

bnchief · 11-08-2016, 07:50 PM

Getting the belt on seems to be a common problem. Keith i see your points and agree it would do no good to have anything in a bind, I did see in Les andrews book it talked about having 1/4" clearance between the throttle mechanism and the firewall I have not tried to use the rear trans mount as of yet as I am trying to get the front true first. Well try the 3 degrees suggestion having a straighter shot with the u-joint is best by far. Thanks for the inputs always help a lot.

bnchief · 11-09-2016, 05:38 AM

LTK you are correct in talking about the u-joint needing to be paralell also one should consider that springs are correct as well as this will change angles if springs sag,suspension movement will change the u-joint as well a bad angle will put more strain on components and work everything harder as your video illustrates. Vibration that is another story I have had and toured model t fords for 40 years and i do not notice vibration so much could be the nerve endings are gone, and have also noticed as i get older that the engine is quieter just like the wife but i always hear dinner is ready clearly. By the way thanks Keith and bill i appreciate your inputs. I have the stock mount as well as the front mount and will experiment with all the ideas given here. One thing is for sure Keith you want to have things correct so as not to put a bind on the engine. Les andrews book also mentioned to make sure you have 1/4" of clearance between throttle bracket and the firewall as well. thanks to all for your inputs. I will see what degree the engine is and try to get it at 3 degrees.

Mitch//pa · 11-09-2016, 05:51 AM

I'm not sure this helps but the rear FAM mounts have an up and a down... If on wrong the crank hole will not line up....just sayin

BILL WILLIAMSON · 11-09-2016, 05:47 PM

As for drive shafts/torque tubes, they DON'T have to run in a straight line, parallel to the frame! That's why cars have "U" joints. Most drive lines/torque tubes, run DOWNHILL!
On an OPEN driveline that's perfectly straight, the "U" joint NEVER flexes, to move the grease around & the needle bearings in the cups will wear little grooves, in the cups.
Open drive shafts even have recommended degree angles, for the front & rear "U" joints! TOTALLY STRAIGHT "U" JOINT SET UP IS BAD.
Bill W.

bnchief · 11-09-2016, 07:26 PM

Mitch the cast iron ones are marked top and they have good instructions for the mounts on their website. Bill you are correct about drivelines and u-joints and they will take a fair degree of angle one only has to look at your car to see that..Good points thanks again.

BILL WILLIAMSON · 11-09-2016, 09:41 PM

And on some open drive cars, the pinion shaft is NOT centered side to side, in the car. "U" JOINTS were a MARVELOUS invention!!!
Bill W.

11-08-2016, 06:50 AM	#1
bnchief Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Posts: 252	Float a motor questions First off let me state that i have read the search and threads on float a motor but i have a few questions. 1. i am using a napa fan belt 43" with the toothed style withe the front motor mounting(not stock) the crank case pulley is close enough to the cross member that i cannot get the fan belt on even though i do not have the float a motor bolts tightened down. 2. I believe the motor sits down too low in the front Is there a number of degrees the engine should tilt up at the front for the correct angle for drive line? ( i have the ability to machine whatever thickness of spacer i might need) 3. I am also using float a motor mounts in the rear as well as the transmission mounts 4. the engine does not seem to be quite centered but I will check that with a crank lug nut wrench. So has anybody ran into this? Since this is my first model a this is new to me however the flat head in my 37 ford is pretty much mounted like this. I know there are plenty of pros and cons on float a motors mine is the kit from brattons.

11-08-2016, 07:18 AM	#2
SeaSlugs Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Central, IL Posts: 3,968	Re: Float a motor questions how do you have a trans mount? __________________ 1929 Model AA - Need long splash aprons!

11-08-2016, 07:28 AM	#3
bnchief Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Posts: 252	Re: Float a motor questions It is the one that comes with the kit that brattons sell bolts on to the universal joint go to brattons look up the float a motor kit 75.00 print or look at pdf instructions it will show it installed.

11-08-2016, 07:33 AM	#4
Jacksonlll Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Michigan-- Member of Oakleaf of MARC Posts: 1,686	Re: Float a motor questions Don't know what you are using for the front mount, but it sounds like the front of the motor is just too low. Must be more to it than that.

11-08-2016, 07:40 AM	#5
bnchief Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Posts: 252	Re: Float a motor questions I am using the front motor mount that comes with the kit bratton sells, I may have to put the original back on and check and measure the clearance that would help answer my my question but not sure how the back float a motor brackets affect the front.

11-08-2016, 08:39 AM	#6
Keith True Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Epping N.H. Posts: 3,423	Re: Float a motor questions Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) If you are using what some call the B front mount,and the side floaters,and the trans rear mount it can be a lot of problems.with that somewhat fixed B front mount the front of the engine is fixed to one spot.Then if you mount the rear mount it will either try to lift the rear of the engine or force it down,depending on the condition of the frame and the amount of rubber you put under the front mount.I fixed one where the engine was being supported on each end by the mounts,and was trying to pull the side mounts up in the air.If you insist on using all three mounts you will need to set the engine,and shim the mounts until they all slide into place freely,and you can put all the bolts in with your fingers.I think 3 mounts on that 4 foot unit is too rigid for such a flexible frame.

11-08-2016, 08:41 AM	#7
Ray in La Mesa Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: La Mesa Ca Posts: 1,273	Re: Float a motor questions I used the stock front mount with the Float-O-Motor rear & trans mounts. Everything lined up great. There is some adjustment in the front stock mount.

11-08-2016, 09:24 AM	#8
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: Float a motor questions few use the front mount included with the FAM kit. Those that do have various problems. I have removed several front FAM mounts for clients and replaced with a stock yoke type mount and all the problems disappeared, including nasty engine vibration. Henry knew what he was doing __________________ '31 180A

11-08-2016, 09:35 AM	#9
Benson Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Cen~Col - Central Highlands Posts: 2,757	Re: Float a motor questions Quote: "2. I believe the motor sits down too low in the front Is there a number of degrees the engine should tilt up at the front for the correct angle for drive line? ( I have the ability to machine whatever thickness of spacer i might need)" 3 degrees... I tried Float a Motor engine mounts 50 years ago. I went back to originals. Engine runs smoothly without all of the problems of using FAMs ... Other things cause vibrations: Like poorly balanced engine builds. A fan blade that is out of balance will really shake the whole car for instance... Last edited by Benson; 11-08-2016 at 09:50 AM.

11-08-2016, 10:01 AM	#10
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: Float a motor questions With Minervas' front & rear FLOAT-A-MOTORS, I had to add 2 large flat washers, above the front biscuits, to align the crank goody. Pulleys being too low to change the belt easily, is a COMMON PROBLEM, even with stock mounts. Even Henry would "approve" FLOAT-A-MOTORS!!! Modern cars would sound like CRAP, if not mounted on RUBBER!!! Bill Hummmn! __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"

11-08-2016, 10:32 AM	#11
Keith True Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Epping N.H. Posts: 3,423	Re: Float a motor questions Every floater mount problem I have seen was created by wrong installation.I fixed a couple of the front mounts,they were installed with the wrong heighth rubber,direct metal to metal contact through the mounting bolts,wrong size holes in the crossmember,holes in the wrong spots,and then just pulling the whole thing down with the bolts because the instructions said to.I did look at one old set of directions and it showed installing the bolts up from the bottom,with no rubber under it.The owner said,well,that's how the directions say to do it.Directions were wrong.The object is to isolate the engine from the frame.Directions written by a guy sitting in an office in South America are not always accurate.

11-08-2016, 11:10 AM	#13
Art Newland Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Lynden, WA Posts: 1,564	Re: Float a motor questions Not sure how this works with a closed drive-line with no rear u-joint. Just aligning the trans/torque-tube to be as straight as possible?

11-08-2016, 04:23 PM	#14
CarlG Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 9,192	Re: Float a motor questions I have stock motor mounts, front and rear. Still have to jack the engine up a tad to get the belt on. __________________ Alaskan A's Antique Auto Mushers of Alaska Model A Ford Club of America Model A Restorers Club Antique Automobile Club of America Mullins Owner's Club

11-08-2016, 07:50 PM	#15
bnchief Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Posts: 252	Re: Float a motor questions Getting the belt on seems to be a common problem. Keith i see your points and agree it would do no good to have anything in a bind, I did see in Les andrews book it talked about having 1/4" clearance between the throttle mechanism and the firewall I have not tried to use the rear trans mount as of yet as I am trying to get the front true first. Well try the 3 degrees suggestion having a straighter shot with the u-joint is best by far. Thanks for the inputs always help a lot.

11-09-2016, 05:38 AM	#16
bnchief Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Posts: 252	Re: Float a motor questions LTK you are correct in talking about the u-joint needing to be paralell also one should consider that springs are correct as well as this will change angles if springs sag,suspension movement will change the u-joint as well a bad angle will put more strain on components and work everything harder as your video illustrates. Vibration that is another story I have had and toured model t fords for 40 years and i do not notice vibration so much could be the nerve endings are gone, and have also noticed as i get older that the engine is quieter just like the wife but i always hear dinner is ready clearly. By the way thanks Keith and bill i appreciate your inputs. I have the stock mount as well as the front mount and will experiment with all the ideas given here. One thing is for sure Keith you want to have things correct so as not to put a bind on the engine. Les andrews book also mentioned to make sure you have 1/4" of clearance between throttle bracket and the firewall as well. thanks to all for your inputs. I will see what degree the engine is and try to get it at 3 degrees. Last edited by bnchief; 11-09-2016 at 05:44 AM.

11-09-2016, 05:51 AM	#17
Mitch//pa BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks County, PA Posts: 11,454	Re: Float a motor questions I'm not sure this helps but the rear FAM mounts have an up and a down... If on wrong the crank hole will not line up....just sayin

11-09-2016, 05:47 PM	#18
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: Float a motor questions As for drive shafts/torque tubes, they DON'T have to run in a straight line, parallel to the frame! That's why cars have "U" joints. Most drive lines/torque tubes, run DOWNHILL! On an OPEN driveline that's perfectly straight, the "U" joint NEVER flexes, to move the grease around & the needle bearings in the cups will wear little grooves, in the cups. Open drive shafts even have recommended degree angles, for the front & rear "U" joints! TOTALLY STRAIGHT "U" JOINT SET UP IS BAD. Bill W. __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"

11-09-2016, 07:26 PM	#19
bnchief Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Posts: 252	Re: Float a motor questions Mitch the cast iron ones are marked top and they have good instructions for the mounts on their website. Bill you are correct about drivelines and u-joints and they will take a fair degree of angle one only has to look at your car to see that..Good points thanks again.

11-09-2016, 09:41 PM	#20
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: Float a motor questions And on some open drive cars, the pinion shaft is NOT centered side to side, in the car. "U" JOINTS were a MARVELOUS invention!!! Bill W. __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"