The Ford Barn

tubman · 06-04-2016, 12:06 PM

I got my '51 Merc engine running, and it seems to be in better shape than I could have hoped; good compression, good oil pressure, no noises, and doesn't overheat. The only problems are a slight oil leak at the front main seal and a larger one at the rear main seal. I went through my extra gasket sets and found some seals. I have both the plain rope seals and graphite-impregnated seals for the front. Any opinions on which would be better to use? I think the graphite ones are newer, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're better. I only have the rope seals for the rear. I have both the teflon-coated and plain seals. Any opinion on which of those is better?

Also, it looks like I can't replace the upper rear main seal without dropping the crankshaft. Given how well this runs, I'd rather not disturb the rotating assembly. I seem to remember back in the day there were long thin spring steel shims that could be pushed in behind the old seal to tighten it up. Is there such a thing, and if so, are they worth using, and where can I get one?

cmbrucew · 06-04-2016, 09:11 PM

Tman

You can use a T handled corkscrew to remove the upper rear main seal. My grandfather taught me to use cotton string for the replacement upper seal. Push it in and pack it tight with a wooden chopstick or something similar, using a small hammer. if you do not have the cotton string you can get some from the butcher, they use it for tying roasts.

Bruce

Binx · 06-04-2016, 09:47 PM

Be sure you're not over-filled with oil before replacing seals.

Lonnie

tubman · 06-04-2016, 09:57 PM

Bruce,

I never heard of the cotton string deal. I never liked the idea of trying to replace the main seal with the crank in place; they're difficult enough with the crank out. Anybody remember the "spring steel strip" deal?

Lonnie,

Four quarts of 10W-30 with a pint of MMO and a pint of Seafoam. It was right on the "full" mark on the dipstick that I have every reason to believe is the original.

Tubman

Binx · 06-04-2016, 10:17 PM

Well, okay. is the oil pan clean?

Lonnie

fordwife · 06-04-2016, 10:17 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Back in the day thee used to be a device called a"sneaky pete that was designed to replace upper seals without removing the crankshaft. I may still have one around. If Ican find it you would be welcome to it

tubman · 06-04-2016, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Binx

Well, okay. is the oil pan clean?

Lonnie

Lonnie,

It's a Ford pan (the engine is going in my '51 Ford). I cleaned it thoroughly before I installed it. I ran the engine for a few hours with the 10W-30, MMO, and Seafoam concoction in it. When I pulled it the second time, There was a fair amount of sludge in it again. Kinda surprising. Not enough to cause a capacity problem, though. When I swapped the pans, I kept the dipsticks, tubes and pans together as a set; in my recollection, they were the same, however.

"Fordwife",

If you can find it, I'd be interested in looking at it.

JWL · 06-05-2016, 05:10 AM

Yes, I remember the steel "shim" kit. Those I used had various size spring steel wires with a guide tube that held the wire straight while a "punch" was inserted into the guide. The wire was forced(hammered) into the seal groove between the original seal and the metal. The wire diameter was selected based on how much leakage was being exhibited. This system worked very well and MANY used cars were sold with dry oil pans.

tubman · 06-05-2016, 08:58 AM

Thanks, JWL, that's encouraging to hear. I thought I wouldn't be the only one who remembered these. Now the question is : are they still available, and where?

I would appreciate any leads on these; the first few pages of "Google" didn't give me anything. Also, anyone have an opinion on whether the graphite impregnated seals are superior to the plain rope ones?

RalphM · 06-05-2016, 09:37 AM

On the front seal, Speedway sells a one piece one that works well.

tubman · 06-05-2016, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RalphM

On the front seal, Speedway sells a one piece one that works well.

I have heard good and bad things about those. I hear they don't fit the cavity well and require a bunch of silicon sealer to set them in place. There is also the question of whether or not to install a new sleeve on the crankshaft. The front leak was very small and I already have a new graphite seal kit with installation "tools" and instructions, so I think I'll go that way. My main concern is the rear seal. I'm doing some on-line research now. I did find a reprint of a Hemmings article that mentions the steel shim repair kits, but goes no further. I'm gonna call my machist tomorrow and see what he has to say.

fordwife · 06-05-2016, 10:23 AM

The sneaky pete tool is made by Lisle and is available on amazon. There are several posts about it online.

51 MERC-CT · 06-05-2016, 10:31 AM

Sneaky pete also available on Ebay-

http://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_nk...EAL+TOOL+27000

4t8v8 · 06-05-2016, 06:28 PM

Maybe I am confused here. When I replaced the rear main seal on my 8BA I simply rotated the aluminum upper seal keeper out of the block, pressed the new rope seal in it and rotated the keeper back in place. No problems at all. Really quite simple and worked great. Used the white teflon seal.

tubman · 06-05-2016, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4t8v8

Maybe I am confused here. When I replaced the rear main seal on my 8BA I simply rotated the aluminum upper seal keeper out of the block, pressed the new rope seal in it and rotated the keeper back in place. No problems at all. Really quite simple and worked great. Used the white teflon seal.

Duh! I think this is the information I was missing! Thank you! In my collection of junk, I have one plain rope seal and one teflon coated one. I am now soaking he plain one; I believe you use the teflon coated one without soaking. right?

Bluebell · 06-05-2016, 09:11 PM

Be careful Tubman. They are not always that loose and are easy to break.
I found it difficult to get mine out, when the crank was already out! The alloy is like zinc and quite fragile. You can still buy them from the likes of Mac Vanpelt.

tubman · 06-05-2016, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluebell

Be careful Tubman. They are not always that loose and are easy to break.
I found it difficult to get mine out, when the crank was already out! The alloy is like zinc and quite fragile. You can still buy them from the likes of Mac Vanpelt.

Thanks for the warning. I'll be careful. I did go through my stash today, and I found a spare. I think soaking it with a penetrant for a day or two may be prudent.

4t8v8 · 06-06-2016, 08:04 AM

I've had good luck using a wooden dowel and a plastic hammer. A few light taps and they've always rotated right out. Yes, you don't soak the teflon one, just lube the crank real well.

tubman · 06-08-2016, 05:56 PM

"4t8v8". thanks for the tip; I got mine out this afternoon, no problem. I soaked it overnight with "Deep Creep"and hit it with "Freeze-off" when I got to the shop today, just to be sure. I hit it with a dowel and hammer and it came loose and then moved abut 3/4". I was kinda stopped there because the dowel wouldn't go around the corner. I figured out that if I put a slightly over length 7/16" fine bolt in one of the flywheel bolt holes and turned the crank, the seal keeper rotates right out. I put it back in the same way. It looked like the original seal had some old shellac sealer where it fits against the block, so I used it when I put it back in. One tip I can add is to get the seal keeper started in the block before you coat it with sealer.

Us flathead guys are lucky; we don't have to resort to such things a "Sneaky Pete's" for main seals like the other guys. This is one time I think "Ford has a better idea!"

06-04-2016, 12:06 PM	#1
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 11,629	Crankshaft seal questions I got my '51 Merc engine running, and it seems to be in better shape than I could have hoped; good compression, good oil pressure, no noises, and doesn't overheat. The only problems are a slight oil leak at the front main seal and a larger one at the rear main seal. I went through my extra gasket sets and found some seals. I have both the plain rope seals and graphite-impregnated seals for the front. Any opinions on which would be better to use? I think the graphite ones are newer, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're better. I only have the rope seals for the rear. I have both the teflon-coated and plain seals. Any opinion on which of those is better? Also, it looks like I can't replace the upper rear main seal without dropping the crankshaft. Given how well this runs, I'd rather not disturb the rotating assembly. I seem to remember back in the day there were long thin spring steel shims that could be pushed in behind the old seal to tighten it up. Is there such a thing, and if so, are they worth using, and where can I get one?

06-04-2016, 09:11 PM	#2
cmbrucew Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: North of sandy ago, CA. Posts: 2,080	Re: Crankshaft seal questions Tman You can use a T handled corkscrew to remove the upper rear main seal. My grandfather taught me to use cotton string for the replacement upper seal. Push it in and pack it tight with a wooden chopstick or something similar, using a small hammer. if you do not have the cotton string you can get some from the butcher, they use it for tying roasts. Bruce __________________ Works good Lasts long time

06-04-2016, 09:47 PM	#3
Binx Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Gloucester VA Posts: 1,042	Re: Crankshaft seal questions Be sure you're not over-filled with oil before replacing seals. Lonnie

06-04-2016, 09:57 PM	#4
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 11,629	Re: Crankshaft seal questions Bruce, I never heard of the cotton string deal. I never liked the idea of trying to replace the main seal with the crank in place; they're difficult enough with the crank out. Anybody remember the "spring steel strip" deal? Lonnie, Four quarts of 10W-30 with a pint of MMO and a pint of Seafoam. It was right on the "full" mark on the dipstick that I have every reason to believe is the original. Tubman

06-04-2016, 10:17 PM	#5
Binx Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Gloucester VA Posts: 1,042	Re: Crankshaft seal questions Well, okay. is the oil pan clean? Lonnie

06-04-2016, 10:17 PM	#6
fordwife Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 287	Re: Crankshaft seal questions Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Back in the day thee used to be a device called a"sneaky pete that was designed to replace upper seals without removing the crankshaft. I may still have one around. If Ican find it you would be welcome to it

06-05-2016, 05:10 AM	#8
JWL Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Fitzgerald, Georgia Posts: 2,204	Re: Crankshaft seal questions Yes, I remember the steel "shim" kit. Those I used had various size spring steel wires with a guide tube that held the wire straight while a "punch" was inserted into the guide. The wire was forced(hammered) into the seal groove between the original seal and the metal. The wire diameter was selected based on how much leakage was being exhibited. This system worked very well and MANY used cars were sold with dry oil pans.

06-05-2016, 08:58 AM	#9
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 11,629	Re: Crankshaft seal questions Thanks, JWL, that's encouraging to hear. I thought I wouldn't be the only one who remembered these. Now the question is : are they still available, and where? I would appreciate any leads on these; the first few pages of "Google" didn't give me anything. Also, anyone have an opinion on whether the graphite impregnated seals are superior to the plain rope ones? Last edited by tubman; 06-05-2016 at 09:04 AM.

06-05-2016, 09:37 AM	#10
RalphM Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: North Pole, Alaska Posts: 2,667	Re: Crankshaft seal questions On the front seal, Speedway sells a one piece one that works well.

06-05-2016, 10:23 AM	#12
fordwife Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 287	Re: Crankshaft seal questions The sneaky pete tool is made by Lisle and is available on amazon. There are several posts about it online.

06-05-2016, 10:31 AM	#13
51 MERC-CT Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: East Hartford, Ct Posts: 5,898	Re: Crankshaft seal questions Sneaky pete also available on Ebay- http://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_nk...EAL+TOOL+27000 __________________ DON'T RECALL DOING SOMETHING FOR MYSELF BASED ON SOMEONE ELSE'S LIKES OR DISLIKES

06-05-2016, 06:28 PM	#14
4t8v8 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: NW Arkansas Posts: 526	Re: Crankshaft seal questions Maybe I am confused here. When I replaced the rear main seal on my 8BA I simply rotated the aluminum upper seal keeper out of the block, pressed the new rope seal in it and rotated the keeper back in place. No problems at all. Really quite simple and worked great. Used the white teflon seal.

06-05-2016, 09:11 PM	#16
Bluebell Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Tauranga, New Zealand Posts: 726	Re: Crankshaft seal questions Be careful Tubman. They are not always that loose and are easy to break. I found it difficult to get mine out, when the crank was already out! The alloy is like zinc and quite fragile. You can still buy them from the likes of Mac Vanpelt.

06-06-2016, 08:04 AM	#18
4t8v8 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: NW Arkansas Posts: 526	Re: Crankshaft seal questions I've had good luck using a wooden dowel and a plastic hammer. A few light taps and they've always rotated right out. Yes, you don't soak the teflon one, just lube the crank real well. Last edited by 4t8v8; 06-06-2016 at 08:06 AM. Reason: Oops.

06-08-2016, 05:56 PM	#19
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 11,629	Re: Crankshaft seal questions "4t8v8". thanks for the tip; I got mine out this afternoon, no problem. I soaked it overnight with "Deep Creep"and hit it with "Freeze-off" when I got to the shop today, just to be sure. I hit it with a dowel and hammer and it came loose and then moved abut 3/4". I was kinda stopped there because the dowel wouldn't go around the corner. I figured out that if I put a slightly over length 7/16" fine bolt in one of the flywheel bolt holes and turned the crank, the seal keeper rotates right out. I put it back in the same way. It looked like the original seal had some old shellac sealer where it fits against the block, so I used it when I put it back in. One tip I can add is to get the seal keeper started in the block before you coat it with sealer. Us flathead guys are lucky; we don't have to resort to such things a "Sneaky Pete's" for main seals like the other guys. This is one time I think "Ford has a better idea!"