Terry Burtz Block

[Chris Haynes]

Has anyone heard an updates on the Terry Burtz Block? I heard a few months ago he was still looking for a foundry who could/would do them.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Back about a year ago he pulled the patterns & tooling from the foundry he was working with due to costs and put everything into storage. I suspect that the project is on permanent sabbatical.

[Rowdy]

Just curious about something so do not take my questions as bashing anyone as I have alot of respect for all involved.
1) What major differences were there in Terry's block as far as fearures that made it harder to produce than Todds?
2) Todds proposed block seems to be much closer to reality than Terry's in a fraction of the time. Is this more to do with design or the foundries they worked with?

Once again, no offence meant as Terry got much closer than I likely could have and although it would be several years before I would buy one I was looking forward to seeing them first hand. Rod

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Rowdy

Just curious about something so do not take my questions as bashing anyone as I have alot of respect for all involved.
1) What major differences were there in Terry's block as far as fearures that made it harder to produce than Todds?
2) Todds proposed block seems to be much closer to reality than Terry's in a fraction of the time. Is this more to do with design or the foundries they worked with?

Once again, no offence meant as Terry got much closer than I likely could have and although it would be several years before I would buy one I was looking forward to seeing them first hand. Rod

Rod,

I sent you a PM answering your questions as I cannot do so publicly without it appearing that I am bashing a potential competitor.

Tod

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

Brent is correct. The tooling is in storage.

The differences between the 2 designs can be found here: http://www.modelaengine.com/

Tod mentioned bashing, and that is why I seldom post.

I wish the best for Tod. I spoke with him and offered to pay for an airplane ticket so he could see the tooling, and good castings. Tod stated that he is very busy, and not interested.

[aonemarine]

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I would hate to see things fall idle although I know how difficult things can be at some times. I am what is considered a back yard hobbiest metal caster but I would like to think I have a good eye and understanding of things. Honestly I dont know what I can say. I would just like the opportunity to look at what you have done and where the problems lie to see if I can come up with a solution. Im sure I will likely never hear from either of you. Thats just life I suppose.

[Tod]

This is a copy of the last email I sent to Terry,

"Terry,

I took a quick look at the pattern pictures and I would have to say that none of the foundries around me could use that tooling as it is. Given the work load I have, I don't think I would have time in the foreseeable future to be of any help to you. I would think there has to be a foundry closer to your home that can do that casting. The only reason my foundry can do anything for me is because I am involved. Sorry for the let down.

Tod"


There is no way I can say anything more without sounding worse. I have been in the casting, tooling, and machining industry for nearly 40 years. I have made tooling for castings that make an engine block look like a brick. I am NOT what you would call a "back yard hobbiest" in any aspect of the industry. I have worked with upwards of 60 foundries over the years and produced castings for the most intricate castings you can imagine. What I know for a fact is that the only foundries I know that would consider doing this need my experience to do it. My experience tells me that not even my foundries could use the tooling as it is, and so it would need major alteration by ME in order to even try a sample casting. BUT, as the email explains, I do not have time to get that involved in someone else's project. I am behind on my own stuff!

When Terry and I started talking about this the basic idea was that maybe I could get my foundries to look at this and then, once castings were produced, I could machine his as well. We had a rather long phone call about it all where we discussed several aspects of the matter. The reason I backed away also had to do with the impression I am left with of the COST of getting to the pouring floor. Would Terry be willing and able to fund what it would take to get there? I wasn't willing to push that issue and have him think I was trying to take advantage of him. So, I decided to leave things alone.

Tod

[aonemarine]

I am NOT what you would call a "back yard hobbiest" in any aspect of the industry. I have worked with upwards of 60 foundries over the years and produced castings for the most intricate castings you can imagine

And theres my answer.
Were you both using resin bonded sand for your molds and cores?

[Tod]

Originally Posted by aonemarine

And theres my answer.
Were you both using resin bonded sand for your molds and cores?

I can't speak for Terry's foundries, but it depends on which cores, and yes, the foundries use chemically bonded sand molding. Since I am not using an automatic molding foundry my equipment is not set up for green sand. And, I am not having a problem getting castings. My problem right now is machining time, But that will soon be an issue put in the past.

Tod

[AL in NY]

I have always liked Terry's idea of an improved Model A block with five main bearings. I don't see the need for a recasting of an 88 year old block design unless there are some type of improvements to the basic design. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of original Model A blocks. Tod, could you highlight what improvements have you designed into your new casting?

[Mitch//pa]

I'll take a newly cast original style block over an 88 year old one anyday. Look at all the stress issues we encounter from valve seats to water jackets etc. shit only last so long

[Tod]

Originally Posted by AL in NY

I have always liked Terry's idea of an improved Model A block with five main bearings. I don't see the need for a recasting of an 88 year old block design unless there are some type of improvements to the basic design. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of original Model A blocks. Tod, could you highlight what improvements have you designed into your new casting?

I won't do that in this thread started by Chris. The only reason I joined in this thread was because a question was asked that involved me and I thought some answers were in order.

If you research here, and someone might be able to quickly point you in the right direction, you can find your questions answered. If you care to hear from me directly, I can delineate answers by email, or PM.

Tod

[aonemarine]

Originally Posted by Tod

I can't speak for Terry's foundries, but it depends on which cores, and yes, the foundries use chemically bonded sand molding. Since I am not using an automatic molding foundry my equipment is not set up for green sand. And, I am not having a problem getting castings. My problem right now is machining time, But that will soon be an issue put in the past.

Tod

My apologies, somehow I was under the impression that you were both having difficulties with the castings.

[zzlegend]

Here is one of Tod's post. Hope you don't mind me posting this Tod.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...ghlight=blocks

And another.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...ghlight=blocks

[mshmodela]

I think any new block is 1 million percent better than none... the original design is a known design... With new better casting quality from the that of the1920-30s, a new block of the original design will surely be welcome and better than the original.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

I'll take a newly cast original style block over an 88 year old one anyday. Look at all the stress issues we encounter from valve seats to water jackets etc. shit only last so long

Originally Posted by mshmodela

I think any new block is 1 million percent better than none... the original design is a known design... With new better casting quality from the that of the1920-30s, a new block of the original design will surely be welcome and better than the original.

Contact an engine rebuilder to see the amount of cracked blocks that appear at their door for rebuilding.

If we look at this from a cost perspective;

The original block needs to be cleaned and checked for cracks. This is not necessary with a new block. $ saved.

If you're lucky the block is good so now any babbitt needs to be removed. The clearances for the cam shaft, etc need to be checked and re sized if needed. Not so on a new block. $ saved.

If the block is not ready for rebuild, a new block needs to be obtained and the above repeated and/or repairs made. No so with a new block. $ saved.

Machining for inserts would be necessary for the old block but could already be done on the new block, again money saved.

I would take a new block built out rather then a almost 90 year old block almost any day (original number matching block would be an exception but that is more heart felt then practical).

I think projected block costs and the fact that the average home mechanic could but all the parts into the block at a labor savings just like he can do it now with modern SBC engines.
Is it for everyone? No I don't think so.
Would it replace the original block use, also I don't believe so.

This is my opinion and yours may vary.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Contact an engine rebuilder to see the amount of cracked blocks that appear at their door for rebuilding.

If we look at this from a cost perspective;

The original block needs to be cleaned and checked for cracks. This is not necessary with a new block. $ saved.

If you're lucky the block is good so now any babbitt needs to be removed. The clearances for the cam shaft, etc need to be checked and re sized if needed. Not so on a new block. $ saved.

If the block is not ready for rebuild, a new block needs to be obtained and the above repeated and/or repairs made. No so with a new block. $ saved.

Machining for inserts would be necessary for the old block but could already be done on the new block, again money saved.

I would take a new block built out rather then a almost 90 year old block almost any day (original number matching block would be an exception but that is more heart felt then practical).

I think projected block costs and the fact that the average home mechanic could but all the parts into the block at a labor savings just like he can do it now with modern SBC engines.
Is it for everyone? No I don't think so.
Would it replace the original block use, also I don't believe so.

This is my opinion and yours may vary.

And to add how many blocks pass the inspection for a go ahead and rebuild, only to crack shortly thereafter. There is the $$$ saved gone plus more...

[hardtimes]

Hey Mike V,
'opinion' and others will vary.
I agree with ALL that you wrote here and MORE !
More, will be based upon ones experiences...good and bad !
Tons of heartache and $$$$ will be saved by US all who use and participate in the antique technology, by Tods' making of new A/B blocks !
I personally don't care if there are 1000s of left over original A/B blocks. Been there, done that. I'll leave those questionable hunks of cast iron to those who...insist on having such , even when new tech blocks are available !
A saying 'the proof is in the pudding' is true as when first said, i.e.- if you could have built an A/B engine starting with a NEW block, would you ..ha ! I see that guys in this hobby spend tons of $ to tour at todays speeds and many end up doing it again/again.
Darn shame when a guy spends thousands of dollars, enough $ to buy two/three loaded sbc engines, on A/B engine, only to have it go belly up for a ton of reasons...most all related to the use of 85+yr old block.
We will never know how many guys say enough wasted $ for me to stay with this 'hobby'. We guys can do most repairs to these old cars/tech, right next to the highway....with one exception, a faulty block. And, our penchant for 'improving' power/speed, etc only quickens exposure of block faults, IMO.
Pudding proof:
In '02, I delivered several A blocks to a 'builder'. One of three was deemed good by him. He showed me where the other two were headed. I saw a gigantic pile of A/B blocks waiting for scraping. I noticed a B block on his floor. Not wanting an A block build, I asked about this B block. Bottom line is that I paid about third of what Tod is anticipating charging us for a new block. The B block that I bought was still in covered in grease and NOS
That block has never run hot, has no cracks and gives peace of mind for spending obscene $ to build , but after 2000 mi still doesn't leak/burn any oil and runs strong. Yeah, I'd do IT again, just got to find the NEW block and Tod offers that promise !! Will I ever rebuild another worn A/B antique block... Come on Tod, alum or caste B

[steve s]

"... A saying 'the proof is in the pudding' is true as when first said, ... "

The original "pudding" saying was, "The proof of the pudding is in the eating." which makes a lot more sense than the modern variation.

Other sayings that have been botched up in modern times include,

1. "that begs the question" does NOT mean "that raises", or "brings up" the question; rather, the question has been asked in such a way that the answer is assumed in the statement of the question. My favorite example is one of Aquinas' seven so-called proofs of the existence of God, to wit, "Every creation requires a creator."

2. "The lion's share" originally referred to the lion's claim that the portion that belongs to the king of the jungle is ALL of it, not just the biggest portion.