Water Pump Maintenance

[Hoogah]

Stand by for what could be dumb questions! I have pulled my water pump in order to install a new aluminium 2 blade fan and to install a shaft collar to eliminate the existing and considerable axial play.

On removal of the pump shaft I thought I'd just check the front and rear to see what I've got and figure out how it all goes together (the diagrams on their own don't do it for me - gotta touch it!).

Here come the questions:

1. I don't notice the pump leaking, but the rusty mark on the packing nut indicates a slight dribble. It seems that I have a little bit leaky "leakless" neoprene washer and O-ring setup, and that the O-ring is broken. Replacing these should fix the dribble? Or I could go back to the original packing arrangement. Opinions? (It's probably a no-brainer ).

2. Looking inside the rear bushing, there is a hole opposite the grease nipple side. Shouldn't this align with the grease nipple to provide a path for the grease into the bushing? And shouldn't it have been almost impossible to pump grease through this nipple? (It wasn't!) Will I have to press it out and re-install? What gear do I need to do this? (I'll bet I don't have it! )

3. Looking inside the front of the pump after removing the bearing, the same thing seems to be happening with the bearing sleeve. There's no way for the grease to get to the bearing unless I remove the sleeve and re-align it. Correct? Is the same gear used to remove this sleeve as the rear bushing?

4. Assuming that I reassemble the pump with the leakless seal setup at the rear, how tight do I do up the packing nut, considering that it now performs its job in a different way to when it was for compressing the packing?

5. Has anyone used one of these shaft collars to eliminate axial play? Has it worked OK? (I have a cautious distrust of grub screws as a way of "fixing" things to a shaft - not sure if this is well founded or not!)

6. Lastly, what do you think of replacing the water pump studs with the "look-alike" bolts? And how do I remove the studs if I go down that path?

Thanks for your wisdom and experience!!

First Year Apprentice Model A Mechanic

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Personally, I would buy a full ball bearing, leakless pump & never worry about maintenance again.
Bill W.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Pump some grease while it's apart and you will see the holes don't need to be aligned. The shaft collars work great and I use them on every pump I work on. I buy the rear bushing with the seal at the rear of the bushing. This way it keeps the antifreeze and grease better seperated. My brass collar still has the two lead packing rings, just as an added backup if the rear seal should ever fail. I keep the brass collar lightly snugged.

Actually I've run completely stock pumps for over 10 years and never had a leak. I've only recently decided to go with the rear bushing seal to better keep the greae out of the coolant.

[Brentwood Bob]

I don't see the washer that goes between the impeller and the rear bushing.
The shaft needs to be free of pits, or wear, to allow the seal, or the packing to do the proper job.
Bob

[Hoogah]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Personally, I would buy a full ball bearing, leakless pump & never worry about maintenance again.
Bill W.

Thanks Bill, but I want to be old school and keep this one going.

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Pump some grease while it's apart and you will see the holes don't need to be aligned.

I wouldn't have thought that! So the grease finds its way around to the inside of the rear bushing and the front bearing sleeve?

The shaft collars work great and I use them on every pump I work on. I buy the rear bushing with the seal at the rear of the bushing. This way it keeps the antifreeze and grease better seperated. My brass collar still has the two lead packing rings, just as an added backup if the rear seal should ever fail. I keep the brass collar lightly snugged.

Brass collar? Do you mean the brass packing nut? Where are the lead packing rings exactly? Are they an original part?

Actually I've run completely stock pumps for over 10 years and never had a leak. I've only recently decided to go with the rear bushing seal to better keep the greae out of the coolant.

Originally Posted by Brentwood Bob

I don't see the washer that goes between the impeller and the rear bushing.
The shaft needs to be free of pits, or wear, to allow the seal, or the packing to do the proper job.
Bob

Which washer is that?

[Mike V. Florida]

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Originally Posted by Hoogah

Which washer is that?

Number 3

[Tom Wesenberg]

Yes, I meant to say brass packing nut. The two lead packing rings get tucked inside up against the front lip. You may have to use a dental pic to remove the old packing. Be sure to pack grease around the lead packing rings as you install them. You'll have a slow drip if you don't pack them with grease during the installation.

[Hoogah]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Number 3

It's kind of pressed into the back of the impeller. Is it meant to stand proud of the back of the impeller against the back of the housing, because it doesn't! I can't figure out what its purpose is.

[Big hammer]

As for stud removal, I double nut the stud, tighten the nuts against each other, using lower nut and turn off. If nut spin off studs, grip stud under nuts with vise grips, really stuck studs may need heat and penetrant oil.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Hoogah

It's kind of pressed into the back of the impeller. Is it meant to stand proud of the back of the impeller against the back of the housing, because it doesn't! I can't figure out what its purpose is.

I always use the square brass thrust washer. The two corners fit into the two raised angles on the impellor. It serves as a bearing surface for the forward pull of the fan.

[Bob C]

The whole back of that pump looks strange where the bushing comes through.

Bob

[Brentwood Bob]

The face of the rear bushing is worn off. That maybe where some of the play forward of the shaft was created.
Clearance of a properly assembled assembly is .010", or the thickness of the gasket that goes between the head and the face of the waterpump.
If the WP was assembled without the thrust washer, the face of the brass bushing would resemble what you show after the impeller has a chance to eat up the face of the rear bushing.
Bob

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

I'm just going to talk about the aluminum fan blade. I had 2 of them and the don't last long, The tapper wears out on the shaft and the fan will wobble. I hated to do this at first but I bought 5 bladed fan with the steel hub work great. ALSO, I bought the pump with the sealed bearings and don't worry about grease the pump. I've put a lot of miles on Model A,s learned a lot. Walt

[Tom Wesenberg]

Bob, not only is the thrust part of the rear bushing missing, but the inside bushing looks too thin. I wonder if someone cobbled it up try to make a leakless or who knows what? I'd order a new rear bushing and shaft with the impellor pinned on.

[Hoogah]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I always use the square brass thrust washer. The two corners fit into the two raised angles on the impellor. It serves as a bearing surface for the forward pull of the fan.

Tom, have attached a photo of the front side of my impeller. You can see that it has the 30-31 style SS teardrop thrust washer - wrong for a '28 but should be doing its job, except that it is bearing on the rear housing rather than the rear bushing that is missing it's rear face.

Originally Posted by Brentwood Bob

The face of the rear bushing is worn off. That maybe where some of the play forward of the shaft was created.
Clearance of a properly assembled assembly is .010", or the thickness of the gasket that goes between the head and the face of the waterpump.
If the WP was assembled without the thrust washer, the face of the brass bushing would resemble what you show after the impeller has a chance to eat up the face of the rear bushing.
Bob

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Bob, not only is the thrust part of the rear bushing missing, but the inside bushing looks too thin. I wonder if someone cobbled it up try to make a leakless or who knows what? I'd order a new rear bushing and shaft with the impellor pinned on.

I see what you both mean! The rear bushing is wrong (either face is worn off or someone's bodgied up their own bushing) and there's no matching neoprene seal to complete the leakless setup in the packing nut.

I'm going to get a new shaft/impeller, leakless rear bushing, and replace the neoprene seal and O-ring in the packing nut. Sound right?

Tom, do the lead packing rings work with the leakless seals in the packing nut without any other modification?

Thanks for your help on this!

[Tom Wesenberg]

I'm not sure what you mean by the leakless seals, but I rebuild my pumps as stock except for the rear bushing has a seal at the rear. This works well with the lead packing rings. I'd buy the brass thrust washer, but either one should work.

[Hoogah]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I'm not sure what you mean by the leakless seals, but I rebuild my pumps as stock except for the rear bushing has a seal at the rear. This works well with the lead packing rings. I'd buy the brass thrust washer, but either one should work.

Tom, I was referring too the leakless setup in the packing nut. Here's Brattons picture (Part #12600) and the one off my car. From what you just said, the only mod you make in the packing nut is the use of the lead packing rings?

[Brentwood Bob]

Much easier to service the water pump with the lead packing rings.
just remember to use grease to lube the shaft at the packing nut.
Bob

[Hoogah]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Bob, not only is the thrust part of the rear bushing missing, but the inside bushing looks too thin. I wonder if someone cobbled it up try to make a leakless or who knows what? I'd order a new rear bushing and shaft with the impellor pinned on.

Well spotted Tom. The rear bush was a homemade affair with a thin brass bush inside a thicker section of steel tube, and no thrust part extending out the back of the pump housing.

I ended up buying a complete rebuild kit, which fixed that problem but created another one. The inside of the grease tube (that takes grease to the bushing) is raised and interferes with the area around the threaded section of the bushing (where it pokes through the back of the pump housing) such that I can't fit the O-ring flat against the back surface of the pump housing or screw the packing nut down onto it as intended for this "leakless" setup.

My options according to the instructions that came with the kit are to grind that area back to remove the interference, which makes me scared of exposing the grease tube? So now I'm looking at Tom's post and wondering if he thinks I have another option:

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

. . . I rebuild my pumps as stock except for the rear bushing has a seal at the rear. This works well with the lead packing rings. . .

Does this mean that I can ignore the need for the O-ring (and therefore wouldn't need to screw the packing nut down to the back of the bushing thread) by replacing the lead packing rings in the packing nut?

Would this arrangement mean that I wouldn't have to screw the packing nut down as hard, and therefore avoid any interference with the raised grease tube?

Sorry if this looks like I'm trying to make you state the obvious, but I just need reassurance that the combination of new rear seal plus old lead packing rings does the job.

(It also annoys me to have to pay A$130 (US$97) for a kit that I not going to fully use, but I'll get over it if I get a solution. )

[Tom Wesenberg]

Where is the O ring?
I haven't used an O ring when I rebuilt the pump.
Does the rear bushing have a single or double lip seal in it?
Do you have the thrust washer that fits against the impellor?