JS question.....area 22

[d.j. moordigian]

After viewing spdway1 photo post,...it got me thinking about.." Area 22 ".
Even tho there are different wheel manufactures in both 28-29 and 30-31,
how close is the " visually match."? Walk by or tape measure?

[lindy williams]

Judges for this area commonly use a cardboard gauge to see the different spoke spacing between Kelsey Hayes and Ford wheels.

[Doug Clayton]

"Visually" was intended to mean the judge can see the difference in spoke spacing - evenly spaced spokes on a Kelsey-Hayes wheel or spokes placed in sets of three like the Ford wheels. It was NOT intended to encourage the use of gauges during judging!

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by lindy williams

Judges for this area commonly use a cardboard gauge to see the different spoke spacing between Kelsey Hayes and Ford wheels.

Judges aren't allowed to use gauges (written in the rules I believe). This makes differentiating any '30-31 wheels apart other than the "Hams" a bit difficult. The extra spacing on the Hams is easy to spot once familiar with them. That isn't to suggest folks shouldn't pay attention if they care. As always, what matters to the individual is what's important.

[spdway1]

It is judging misconceptions like these are why I am not doing Blue Ribbon Judging!!!!
But I will have a close to perfect truck!!

[Coupster]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

This handy little tool was posted in one of the national club newsletters some time ago. The spacing is in mm. Kelsey Hayes and Ford.


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[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

After viewing spdway1 photo post,...it got me thinking about.." Area 22 ".
Even tho there are different wheel manufactures in both 28-29 and 30-31,
how close is the " visually match."? Walk by or tape measure?

Love the photo!

Pluck

[WTSHNN]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

I like how the muffler is wedged into the frame.

-Tim

[WTSHNN]

Wanna see a boatload of Model A Wheels?



-Tim

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

Judges aren't allowed to use gauges (written in the rules I believe). This makes differentiating any '30-31 wheels apart other than the "Hams" a bit difficult. The extra spacing on the Hams is easy to spot once familiar with them. That isn't to suggest folks shouldn't pay attention if they care. As always, what matters to the individual is what's important.

I'm sure you are saying that in jest because that is the only day that "all bets are off" when it comes to adjudication!!

With that said, Doc Kalinka, --a MANY time Team Captain of Area 22 showed me his method. He grouped three of his fingers together and stuck them between the spokes at the rim. At that point it becomes really obvious. Folks also need to realize that in almost all cases, the Team Captain has 'been around the block' a few times with regard to what is listed in the JS book. Most Team Captains know their Area backwards & forwards, ...and even more than what is listed in the book. Often times, they can point out items to the other judges that become (painfully) obvious to the team members once it is looked at. Marco is very right in that the car owner should restore the car to suit themselves.

[d.j. moordigian]

Thank you...

Doug or Marco,
After viewing all those wheels and tires,.....is there a possibility that the 4 on
the ground didn't match and what about the spares?

Dudley

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

Thank you...

Doug or Marco,
After viewing all those wheels and tires,.....is there a possibility that the 4 on the ground didn't match and what about the spares?

Dudley

Anything is possible but it certainly isn't probable except for on rare occasions. Some of the slight variations which have been noted were based on WHEN the wheels were produced and others based on WHERE they were produced.

The issue of WHEN obviously eliminates the the possibility of a mix except during an extremely brief period during a change. The issue of WHERE they were made should not come into play much at all in my opinion.

I don't know how many plants Kelsey Hayes during Model A production but when Kelsey's KH Wheel Co. merged with Hayes Wheel company in 1927 (becoming Kelsey Hayes), Hayes alone had five regional plants around the USA to serve the auto industry.

The point of that is many suppliers did just like Ford in building facilities in different regions to be closer to the point of sale. That of course is why ford had branches all around the USA. With that in mind is seems unrealistic that any wheels manufactured by Ford at their facility in Hamilton, OH were ever shipped to San Francisco, Los Angeles, etc., or that Kelsy Hayes would ship any wheels to Columbus, Indianapolis, etc. which were in Hamilton's backyard.

Obviously there is no way both Ford and KH shipped wheels to 35 Ford branches. In fact, I suspect that each branch had a specific source for logistical reasons, and only on rare occasions (if ever) would unforeseen circumstances require a specific supply to be supplemented by another source.

Going back to the original question, I have to believe that a "mix" must have occurred but I'm convinced it would be a very rare occurrence. Additionally I believe the same would apply to shocks, hub caps, etc.

[d.j. moordigian]

Got it,...thanks Marco...

[RockHillWill]

Never looked at it that way Marco, but it sure makes sense, thanks.

[Doug Clayton]

Well, I hate to disagree, but my 30,000 mile Town Sedan (with complete service records since it was new) has two Kelsey-Hayes wheels and three HAM wheels. Also when I changed tires in 1998, the two Kelsey wheels were dated 3/30 (it's a May car). I don't believe this car is extremely unusual and in fact know of others with the same mismatch of wheels. I always wondered if the wheels were originally HAM on one side and Kelsey-Hayes on the other - the idea being that the two sides of the assembly line were drawing from different sides of the stockpile in the warehouse.
Although I agree with the premise that wheels may have been procured and that shipping costs were a factor, I doubt that Ford issued contracts and drop shipped the wheels to all assembly plants. Most of the parts that Ford purchased were routed through Dearborn, then shipped to assembly plants.
Given the production rate during the Model A era, wheels from the Hamilton plant or from Kelsey-Hayes had to arrive in multiple rail cars at a time. The massive size of the pile of arriving wheels would suggest that many of Model A's were built with a set of matching wheels, but not all of them!

[Marco Tahtaras]

I considered the idea that some items would indeed be routed through Dearborn, especially for branches in relatively close proximity. however as an example of the opposite I've worked on two cars built in San Francisco that had seat springs manufactured in Oakland which of course is just across the S.F. Bay.

Where was the Town Sedan first sold?

[Doug Clayton]

Sold in Hartford CT. Manufactured at Kearny NJ.

[d.j. moordigian]

I know I need to reread # 22 carefully! So, maybe were looking at "craftsmanship"
as a first, then a visual at the wheel second,........back too the book.

[d.j. moordigian]

Originally Posted by WTSHNN

I like how the muffler is wedged into the frame.

-Tim

Tim was very observant, the muffler. So I went back and looked at the
photo again. You can see were the wheels don't have hub caps and
as they move up on the conveyor they have them installed. Sure would
like to see the box with the hub caps! I wonder what that "rack" is for
on the driver side of the front car, up against the wall.

[WTSHNN]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

I wonder what that "rack" is for
on the driver side of the front car, up against the wall.

Building radiator?
-Tim