Somethings amiss

[Dusty]

Well after 10,000 miles I may have a problem On the way home from a drive today(really the last couple of times out I thought something might be wrong)) I kept getting the feeling something was not right, you know the feeling that something does not sound or feel right and when that happens you know in your heart your probably right.

This is what I'm hoping for and keep in mind this is from a very non expert's opinion...me I notice that the engine just is not as smooth as it once was, power was ok but I keep from time to time hearing a very light metal type tapping. It only occurs at a certain point of throttle. Very heavy load or very light load it was not there or at least I could not hear it.

After it had cooled I started it up tonight to put it in the garage and the metal tapping which kind of sounds like a marble size metal bearing shaking in a very thick metal box was very apparent. As it warmed up it went away unless you jack on the throttle. As best I can tell it sounds like it is coming from the far left side of the valve cover. So I hope(God I hope) it is the lifters????

I know it is hard to asess a problem with just a best guess narrative but what do you all think? I have Les's book and understand the adjusting principle
but could not find if they are adjusted cold or hot. All so can the valve cover be remove without the intake and exhaust manifolds being remove? or would it easier just to do so. Thanks people in advance and I hope I can dodge a bullet Retirement has its great advantages but having lots of money is not one of them.

dusty

[H. L. Chauvin]

1. Anything that sounds like a marble shaking in a metal box will not get better while running the car & engine.

2. Stethoscope, broom stick, or a piece of wood may help to find "where" this noise is coming from.

3. Before 1,000 of the usual wild Model A guesses from knocks to timing, plus dismantling everything from bumper to bumper, a mechanics stethoscope is least time consuming & not expensive -- get one & report back; or seek help from a local Club's Model A Whisperer!

Hope this helps.

[ford3]

what yr engine and what type?

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Dusty,

Just had to add:

Remember hearing of a Model A Engine re-builder that had a re-Babbitted engine returned for a noise -- dismantled everything (3) times.

He said he almost wanted to commit suicide when he disconnected the fan belt & found it was the water pump was knocking.

Lost art ...................... Think.

[Dusty]

The noise is coming from the left side of valve cover....I said right side but its the left.

[H. L. Chauvin]

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Dusty,

Just trying to sincerely assist further; but, even for a Model A Expert, (i.e., usually a smart-butt jerk who decided to quit learning), a good reference system to describe any vehicle orientation is to think in terms of the:

Driver's Side & Passenger's Side as oppose to Left & Right because Left & Right changes when one does an about face.

Could be too much valve clearance -- let's hope it is this simple -- even a broom stick on your ear & on the valve cover could detect "where" -- e.g., front or rear.

But just (1) of (1,000) wild guesses from miles away -- please try to pinpoint noise & get back -- so many sincere kind gentlemen on this Forum always trying to assist in any then can.

[Dusty]

Without the aid of a Stethoscope(which I will pick up in the morning) I'm 99% sure its behind the far left side of the valve cover.

thanks
dusty

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by ford3

what yr engine and what type?

1930 car but it has a replacement engine from Richmond Ford in California or at least that is what I am to understand as it has an R serial number. As to what type of engine

thanks
dusty

[700rpm]

Loss of power and a ticking noise could be a sticky valve. If the broomstick tells you the noise is in the valve train area, just pull the valve cover and take a look as you slowly turn the engine. Or take a compression check.

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

I bought one of those cheap stethoscopes from harbor freight. It picked up to much noise. Someone on the board said they replaced/used a rubber hose on the end instead of the metal. I found a chunk if hose and replaced the metal end. Wow. I narrowed my knock right down to the cam spring in seconds. The hose with the stethoscope ears, works great.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by 700rpm

Loss of power and a ticking noise could be a sticky valve. If the broomstick tells you the noise is in the valve train area, just pull the valve cover and take a look as you slowly turn the engine. Or take a compression check.

No loss of power at all, like I said in the OP its only apparent when holding just the right amount of throttle. Its not really a tick, its a little more aggressive than a tick. I would think at this point with 10000 miles that a valve or lifter adjustment is due anyway, I'm just hoping that's what it is.

thanks
dusty

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Dusty,

Wise decision for tomorrow -- stethoscope -- proud of your superior intelligence -- every doctor has one around his neck.

If you ever encounter a doctor with a broomstick tied around his neck, he either has a Model A or Model T & he cannot always pinpoint the exact engine noises -- please change doctors immediately or go to a vet -- a vet can diagnose patients who are similar Model A's who cannot communicate in English.

Best of luck in finding the problem -- please do not give up.

[Dusty]

I do have a broomstick, right now its in my rearend...that's where the wife put it when I told her I may need lots of money for my car She said get use to it sitting in the garage because that's where its going to be for a long time At least it has a nice floor to RIP on...check previous post on Epoxying the garage floor


Checking for any job openings at Lowe's in WV
dusty

[Patrick L.]

If you end up removing the valve cover, it'll come off without removing the manifolds.

[George Miller]

10,000 miles, my guise would be center main needs adjustment. But with out hearing the noise it is only a guise.

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

My guess is timing gear going bad. It will ecgo right through the engine. Take of the little side cover covering the side of the cam gear. See if you can wiggle it. You could even start it and run it for a little. Walt

[H. L. Chauvin]

Per message #13, please don't go to Lowes to check on your job while wearing the broom stick -- especially if the straw is still on the other end of the broomstick -- you might only get a temporary one week Lowes job immediately before Halloween next month wearing a big hat.

One thing at a time ............ patience.

Are there possibly any Model A Clubs in your general area that you could call for a club member's "visual" assistance & diagnosis? Might be a member close to your location.

In just reading messages on this Forum, one finds that Model A's have a tendency to have a multitude of similar recurring mechanical, fuel, & electrical problems; hence, thousands of recommended guesses when one cannot hear the "melody" of your specific Model A tune/noise.

Just be fully aware that in calling & asking for any kind of help, the answer is always "NO"; that is ................................. until you ask.

Please continue to keep us posted!

[QGolden]

Hi Dusty
I sincerely hope that this issue turns out to be a non-issue or an easy adjustment for you. Your Green A is one of my favorites. I travel through Morgantown a few times a year on the way to Grayson KY to see my In-laws, I would love to see it in person some day.

100 of us will all diagnose a 100 different malady's that seems to fit our perception of your problem through 100 different personal experiences, and I am no different. I do have an old chart from one of my Vintage (1940's) Motors Manual that I have used to help me to diagnose noises. Bear in mind, Marbles in a thick metal box to you is something different to me. What I call a knock you may call a Rap or a loud tap, or a marble in a heavy tin box. Subtle, Deep etc all suspect to personal opinion.

But here is my go to list (mostly plagiarized) for engine noises some of the symptoms below obviously do not apply to your issue, but it is a good list and might help someone else some day:

Subtle Knock at half engine RPM no load on the motor:
Frequently Lifters. A faulty lifter can be found by listening to each rocker pivot point with a stethoscope while the engine is at idle. Also can be caused by, damaged valve spring, pushrod, rocker arm or even excess valve lash. Noise is caused by metal components "Floating"

Deep metallic knock:
This noise is caused by excessive main bearing clearance. Usually when the engine is under load for instance while accelerating, or climbing up a hill. Low oil pressure accompanies excess main bearing clearance because as clearance increases pressure decreases. Of course if you do not have an Oil Pressure Gauge, then you do not have a benchmark, Particularly in a low pressure, splash A.

Sharp metallic rap when releasing or engaging clutches Or letting off or stepping on the throttle:
Crankshaft end-play wear. Again caused by a momentary float as the pressure is removed or applied to crankshaft. This can be checked with a dial indicator or sometimes shims. Try to move the crankshaft from one side to another recording the amount of play. Check that with the factory specs.

Metallic rap when the engine is running under a light load:
Probably connecting rod clearance. The noise may become louder and will increase in frequency as the engine speed increases. Then go away if you go up hill and put the engine under load. Under load the cylinder pressure keeps the parts tight, under light load they can "float". You can isolate the defective connecting rod bearing by using a Stethoscope (I like the metal probe end inserted into a real rubber hose best myself). Work the throttle until you can repeatedly and predictably create the noise. Remove the spark from one cylinder at a time. When spark is removed from the defective cylinder the metallic rapping will noticeably decrease. .

Dull metallic rattle heard at idle and sometimes under light engine load.
Piston slap is usually the culprit. This noise is caused by excess piston/cylinder wall clearance, and usually goes away if you rev the engine a little. Sometimes the noise will go away completely when things warm up. This noise will not affect the engine’s reliability. However, if the noise remains after the engine is up to temp then a current or imminent piston or ring failures is likely. You cannot diagnose this by removing spark because the piston travel is not individual cylinder dependent.

Light metallic rap at idle and at low speeds:
Usually caused by excessive piston pin clearance. The cylinder with the worn pins can be isolated by grounding spark plugs. However, the affect is different than too much rod clearance. Noise from a loose piston pin will actually increase with the spark grounded, because there is no downward push from ignition and the piston "floats up" as the rod moves down. This sometimes occurs if piston rings are replaced and the pins are not.

While these are some of the most common noise sources, noises can come from areas such as Drive belts, water pumps, generator, timing associated parts etc. It might help to disconnect the Water pump and Generator while listening to a motor, it will reduce some of the ancillary noise.

[J Franklin]

My question would be how long has it been since it has had the bearing clearance checked or adjusted? This is a normal service to be preformed on an A engine.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Walt Dupont--Me.

My guess is timing gear going bad. It will ecgo right through the engine. Take of the little side cover covering the side of the cam gear. See if you can wiggle it. You could even start it and run it for a little. Walt

Looked at Les's book and he said to turn the timing pin in while its running and press against the gear. This should change or eliminate the noise, it did not. Not saying that its still not the problem but that's where I am on that.

Thanks for the input

dusty