The engine click again-prior thread shown in message.

[Fred K-OR]

Hello again. I had posted a prior thread (shown below) where many of you gave me ideas as to what this click could be. Well the temps around here got high enough so I would not freeze while working on the old A so I took the side timing gear cover off.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88415

If you remember I mentioned a click in the engine. I did all of the usual things to check for it and came up with nothing. So I took off the side timing gear cover and found some interesting stuff. First of all, right in front of me, was a part of a tooth missing on the timing gear (see photos). Second I pried the timing gear toward the front of the engine and it moved with ease (about 1/8 inch) and stayed where I pried it to. It then moved back if I nudged it with a screwdriver. (see another photo).

So the questions I still have are: 1) would a missing part of a tooth in the timing gear make a clicking sound when the engine runs (third photo)? Should I change the timing gear because of this tooth problem? Could not find any other problem with teeth. 2) I know some of you said I should put in a new thrust spring (first photo out, second photo back). Based on the fact that the timing gear moves forward and stayed there, could this be the problem?

Would appreciate any comments you all may have. I know it still could be a loose tappet but thought I would check out the timing gear first. Thanks again for the help.

[CarlG]

This is exactly what mine looked like when I had my engine out. Wound up putting in a new bronze timing gear with a matching crank gear. And while I was at it, just went ahead and put a Stipe 330 cam and new lifters in as well.

[700rpm]

I would replace that timing gear, Fred. It's only a matter of time before it goes, and it will be easier in your shop than on the road somewhere. (Which I have done... ask me about that adventure some time!)

[Bill in SoCal]

From your pictures and explanation, the noise is most likely from the thrust of the camshaft during acceleration and deceleration. As others have said, replace the timing gear. I would also replace the crank gear, and the thrust plunger and spring. To do that you will have to remove the front timing cover. I would remove the radiator, too. That will make the repair much easier. Remember to loosen the rear motor mount bolts (I would also take out the bottom motor mount bolt on each side) to allow movement, if you need to jack up the engine for clearance of the removal and installation of front end parts.

[redmodelt]

You could have a 2 piece timing gear and it is coming apart. The 2 piece has a metal center and fiber outer. Sometimes the fiber comes loose from the center and moves back and forth.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

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Fred,
What you describe on the cam movement I feel is QUITE normal when engine is OFF. When running, the angle of the teeth causes a thrust that keeps the cam to the rear.
DO try a cheap stethascope, probe removed, just the small open hose. Run along the side cover, but don't touch the cover. If it is a ticking valve, you CAN isolate which one. Many times with the probe, the sound transmits & it's hard to localize it.
I've done this MANY times on O.H.V. engines with 1 or 2 "tickers" I would put a mark on the valve cover where the noise was, lift the cover, and point to the "CULPRIT"!
Same old "HOSE" trick will find vacuum or exhaust leaks also! Bill W. D.M. (I've labourisly typed this 50 times, and nobody ever says, "GOOD TRICK, BILL!)

[columbiA]

A while back,I had a noise in the front of my B engine.With side cover off,the cam gear would wobble & move about 1/8".The cam nut had loosened off from not being tightened enough by a previous owner.The dowel holes were worn as well,so I replaced the fiber gear with an aluminum one.The CS gear was fine so I replaced cam gear WO removing rad.I also cleaned the threads well & used Loctite on cam nut.

[MikeK]

GOOD TRICK, BILL! New hope for my steth that got it's probe end eaten by a chain drive.
I'd throw in an 'attaboy' but I'm out of milk-bones.

[Fred K-OR]

Thanks guys and Mike also for the Milk Bones for Bill.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by MikeK

GOOD TRICK, BILL! New hope for my steth that got it's probe end eaten by a chain drive.
I'd throw in an 'attaboy' but I'm out of milk-bones.

Yep, Mike, the dog's face says it's EMPTY!
On cars with real weatherstrips, the stethascope is great for finding door & window air leaks, water leaks & whistling sounds. Close doors & windows, blower on high & outside air. It'll pressurise the inside of the car enough that from the outside you can find the leaks with the stethascope hose, even around the trunk lid. Bill W.

[James Rogers]

Bill, you have it wrong. When the engine is running the cam is trying to move forward, that's the reason for the plunger and spring. You should not be able to move the cam with a slight force and it should NOT stay in the forward position but should be pressed to the rear by the plunger. I think the noise is coming from the movement of the cam slamming into the block like Bill in SoCal says. The gear needs to be replaced, if for no other reason than it will fail soon and catch you out and put you on a hauler for the trip home. Been there, done that.

[nick c]

I must disagree with Mr. Rogers. The crank turns clockwise, the cam gear turns counter clockwise and the angle on the teeth push the cam to the rear, thats why Henry put a large thrust ring on the cam shaft. The only time the plunger might come into play is during decelleration.
carry on nick c

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by nick c

I must disagree with Mr. Rogers. The crank turns clockwise, the cam gear turns counter clockwise and the angle on the teeth push the cam to the rear, thats why Henry put a large thrust ring on the cam shaft. The only time the plunger might come into play is during decelleration.
carry on nick c

Wrong, the cam and crank gears are minor players in this situation. The major player is the distributor drive gear and the center gear on the cam which run at a right angle to each other. If the cam had a natural tendancy to run to the rear, there would be no need for the plunger and spring. When the spring is broken or gone or weak the any slight tension on the distributor or oil pump (pressure) will cause the cam to run forward because of this drive angle. I have had many come in like this and worse. I have seen motors with good springs and plungers with sticky distributor bushings that knocked like a main was coming out. I have pulled the side timing cover and watched the cam do this while the motor was running. Most of the time, these come in at the start of the driving season after being stored for some time. This one with a bad spring would not take much resistance in the pump or distributor to run to and fro making a clik. The reason it is a fairly quiet clik is the small amount of resistance it would take to overcome the spring and the slight strength of the spring to return the cam to the rear. I would bet if Fred replaced everything but the side timing cover and ran the engine, the cam would move forward and rearward making his clik but it would be obvious because he could see what is happening.

Even with all that being said, the cam gear would try to climb the crank gear and push forward when running. Study it.

[Dave in MN]

Nick,
Correction: The force imparted from the steel crank gear to the fiber gear would push the fiber gear back. (I just put two gears together and tried it.) You are correct in your observation. Tom adds some additional info in the following post.
Good Day!

[Tom Wesenberg]

I see the steel crankshaft gear driving the cam gear REARWARD, and the resistance of the oil pump and distributor tend to drive the camshaft FORWARD, so the forces tend to counteract each other, depending on which has the greater force. For sure the cam should be pushed rearward with a quite a bit of force from the plunger spring. I checked mine a few years ago and the cam was easily pushed back after I pried it forward.

For sure you want to replace the damaged cam gear, or the car may be dead in the road somewhere.

[MikeK]

Back-pressure on the oil pump, like an added filter that is getting clogged, or a pressure system, or the use of very heavy weight oil will drive the cam forward and overpower the thrust spring. The cam will knock back and forth. Racers often adapted an adjustment/limit bolt and lock nut to back up the thrust plug in the the timing cover.

[Fred K-OR]

Wow, a lot of info on this situation. I still have the side timing cover off so I think I will go to the shop (when it warms up) and start it up like James says and see what happens. I will get that timing gear changed when the weather gets a bit warmer. Thanks guys for the ideas.

[gweilbaker]

Fred,
Shield that spot well or get a oil bath!

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Fred,
That part of a missing tooth MAY be causing the cam to "WALK" & MAY be causing the clicking, well, that's what the Dog said! Fred, you gotta' Dog? Ask him. Bill W.

[Fred K-OR]

Originally Posted by gweilbaker

Fred,
Shield that spot well or get a oil bath!

Thanks, now you tell me. I kind of expected it so put a piece of cardboard under it and caught most of it.