The Ford Barn

mrtexas · 05-10-2012, 08:29 PM

I was putting my 36 transmission back together today using gears from a 46-51 with the clutch shaft end being flattened with a hole in it rather than the 36 style arm. I thought I was being careful enough so as not having to fool with taking apart the synchros but no such luck today.

I noticed that the synchro parts are different than the 38/40 81A gearset I installed in another transmission. The 46/51 51A set has a wire spring retainer 7109 holding part 7116 in place and the other set I installed had 3 little coil springs part 7109 and ball bearings part 353076S. Sorry I don't know the name of these parts but you can look at what I'm talking about at:
http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/f...d-synchros.htm

Thanks van pelt sales for the nice online transmission diagrams. I didn't know what gears sets I had until seeing the diagrams.

Mac VP · 05-11-2012, 05:32 AM

Not sure what drawings you saw but this link will take you thru nearly all the variations of gears and parts in the 32-52 toploader 3 speed trannies:

http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/f...sID_3speed.htm

rotorwrench · 05-11-2012, 08:55 AM

The synchonizer assembly that uses the C-ring springs is much easier to get put back together than the ball & spring type. I'm relatively certain that the later Ford & Mercury transmissions went back to this set up due to simplicity of the design. Ford used these in the 91A (1939) transmissions initially but went back to the ball & spring set up after a short time. In late 48 or 49 they revived it for the Mercury transmissions whiched passed it on to most of the other light duty Ford three speeds.

Floyd · 05-11-2012, 07:03 PM

Not to start a controversy, but the advice I follow from a couple of ole time transmission guys in the area is to use the ball and spring syncro for any toploader application. The clip and C spring was a cost reduction project introduced for the side shift box and works well with side shift boxes which was the norm when it was introduced (except for some pickups). The extra friction in the monkey motion of the column shift keeps the clip and C spring syncho in gear. Sometimes the clip and C spring arrangement does not work so well in the top load box. This is from guys that have been there - done that. Good enough for me. I use the ball and spring setup and it has worked well everytime.
Your milage may vary
Just an opinion
Floyd

Kerk · 05-11-2012, 07:44 PM

Installing the springs and ball set up. I have an original tapered sleve piece/tool from way back when I was changing trannys on a regular basis but have not used it in so long not even sure where it is or what ones it was used on.

ford38v8 · 05-11-2012, 07:59 PM

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The spring & ball is said to be difficult to assemble, but no problem if you have the digital dexterity enough to unhook a bra with one hand! Kinda depends on how bad you need to git er done!

roadstar · 05-12-2012, 06:22 AM

This post intrest me. Being a novice in this department I would like to know if the 39 top loader gear set with synchros will go in my 37 truck box.

It would be nice to shift with out grinding someday.

Mac VP · 05-12-2012, 07:31 AM

RoadstAr....Assuming your 37 truck is a pickup, you trans DOES have a 2nd/high synchronizer. If it's grinding on shifting into 2nd or high, the synchro is worn or the internal springs & balls are bad....or an issue with second gear. You can change the trans or the gearset for a 39 type, but the synchro & gears for the 39 have to be in good order or you'll have the same complaint.

Kirk....we used to agree on the preferred use of the spring & ball type synchro inserts, but we now lean toward the later types held by the two wire spring retainers. One thing i can assure you....NEITHER TYPE does anything to hold the trans in 2nd or high gear. That isn't their function. After doing MANY, MANY teardowns, i've seen failures of both types. The later type is easier to install, and can be used in either synchro hub. The spring & ball type can fail if the top of the little springs catch & get bent over under the ball. The positive side to their use is that the original inserts are solid steel and are nearly indestructible.

The wire spring type insert kit must be ok......Ford and others have used that same basic design ever since.

On our rebuilds we'll install the ball & spring on the synchro that have that type synchro hub...if that is what the customer wants, but as a rule, we use the later kit on our rebuilds.

That's my opinion of course.....

rotorwrench · 05-12-2012, 10:01 AM

To me it's like an apple and an orange. They are both good to eat but different. I used the C-spring type in my 39 top loader gearbox And Mercury overdrive side shifter because that's what they had in them from new. As Mac mentioned, the key to solid holding of gears under operation has more to do with the capability of those gears to move around under stress. If you keep thrust movement and radial play within specs and the shifter mechanisms in good condition then the transmission will operate correctly. If you thrash it, or neglect it, anything can and will go wrong eventually.

Kerby

Henryat1140 · 05-12-2012, 11:09 AM

>>but no problem if you have the digital dexterity enough to unhook a bra with one hand!

Dunno if I could do it today, but generally my technique was to:

-Slide right arm around girl's left shoulder (assuming she was sitting in the seat beside you, and turned toward you for a smooch)
-Slide right arm under back of blouse, sweater etc. contacting her bare back. Make sure your arm isn't chilly. You don't want to draw attention.
-Make sure you are under her left arm, elsewise she may execute the 'female bra unhooking shoulder block'.
-Distract girl so she doesn't realize what's coming next
-Hook right forefinger over and inside bra main strap
This is a crucial moment. If she suspects even a little what you are up to she will twist in the seat and you're done for that attempt.
-With right thumb, push right side of strap toward middle of her back, and with a pinching motion ease the strain on the strap and release both hooks. With a three hook bra, this may have to be done in two steps.
-Rare back and stare her in the eyes, as if to say "How'd that happen?"

It takes practice, but after a hundred or so attempts, you can gain enough agility to do the deed before she notices it's unhooked.

I'm suggesting you should do this; at my advanced age and arthritic, decrepit condition I'd probably get socked in the eye, but if you NEED a technique, here it is. Others will surely have improvements or better methods.

Photos NOT to follow.

05-10-2012, 08:29 PM	#1
mrtexas Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Sugar Land, TX Posts: 4,420	Synchros for 39+ transmissions I was putting my 36 transmission back together today using gears from a 46-51 with the clutch shaft end being flattened with a hole in it rather than the 36 style arm. I thought I was being careful enough so as not having to fool with taking apart the synchros but no such luck today. I noticed that the synchro parts are different than the 38/40 81A gearset I installed in another transmission. The 46/51 51A set has a wire spring retainer 7109 holding part 7116 in place and the other set I installed had 3 little coil springs part 7109 and ball bearings part 353076S. Sorry I don't know the name of these parts but you can look at what I'm talking about at: http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/f...d-synchros.htm Thanks van pelt sales for the nice online transmission diagrams. I didn't know what gears sets I had until seeing the diagrams.

05-11-2012, 05:32 AM	#2
Mac VP Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 1,430	Re: Synchros for 39+ transmissions Not sure what drawings you saw but this link will take you thru nearly all the variations of gears and parts in the 32-52 toploader 3 speed trannies: http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/f...sID_3speed.htm __________________ VANPELT SALES LLC Cincinnati, Ohio Office: 513-724-9486 www.vanpeltsales.com www.classictransmission.com

05-11-2012, 08:55 AM	#3
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 17,411	Re: Synchros for 39+ transmissions The synchonizer assembly that uses the C-ring springs is much easier to get put back together than the ball & spring type. I'm relatively certain that the later Ford & Mercury transmissions went back to this set up due to simplicity of the design. Ford used these in the 91A (1939) transmissions initially but went back to the ball & spring set up after a short time. In late 48 or 49 they revived it for the Mercury transmissions whiched passed it on to most of the other light duty Ford three speeds.

05-11-2012, 07:03 PM	#4
Floyd Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 485	Re: Synchros for 39+ transmissions Not to start a controversy, but the advice I follow from a couple of ole time transmission guys in the area is to use the ball and spring syncro for any toploader application. The clip and C spring was a cost reduction project introduced for the side shift box and works well with side shift boxes which was the norm when it was introduced (except for some pickups). The extra friction in the monkey motion of the column shift keeps the clip and C spring syncho in gear. Sometimes the clip and C spring arrangement does not work so well in the top load box. This is from guys that have been there - done that. Good enough for me. I use the ball and spring setup and it has worked well everytime. Your milage may vary Just an opinion Floyd

05-11-2012, 07:44 PM	#5
Kerk Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 642	Re: Synchros for 39+ transmissions Installing the springs and ball set up. I have an original tapered sleve piece/tool from way back when I was changing trannys on a regular basis but have not used it in so long not even sure where it is or what ones it was used on.

05-11-2012, 07:59 PM	#6
ford38v8 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 7,286	Re: Synchros for 39+ transmissions Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) The spring & ball is said to be difficult to assemble, but no problem if you have the digital dexterity enough to unhook a bra with one hand! Kinda depends on how bad you need to git er done! __________________ Alan

05-12-2012, 06:22 AM	#7
roadstar Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Detroit Posts: 88	Re: Synchros for 39+ transmissions This post intrest me. Being a novice in this department I would like to know if the 39 top loader gear set with synchros will go in my 37 truck box. It would be nice to shift with out grinding someday.

05-12-2012, 07:31 AM	#8
Mac VP Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 1,430	Re: Synchros for 39+ transmissions RoadstAr....Assuming your 37 truck is a pickup, you trans DOES have a 2nd/high synchronizer. If it's grinding on shifting into 2nd or high, the synchro is worn or the internal springs & balls are bad....or an issue with second gear. You can change the trans or the gearset for a 39 type, but the synchro & gears for the 39 have to be in good order or you'll have the same complaint. Kirk....we used to agree on the preferred use of the spring & ball type synchro inserts, but we now lean toward the later types held by the two wire spring retainers. One thing i can assure you....NEITHER TYPE does anything to hold the trans in 2nd or high gear. That isn't their function. After doing MANY, MANY teardowns, i've seen failures of both types. The later type is easier to install, and can be used in either synchro hub. The spring & ball type can fail if the top of the little springs catch & get bent over under the ball. The positive side to their use is that the original inserts are solid steel and are nearly indestructible. The wire spring type insert kit must be ok......Ford and others have used that same basic design ever since. On our rebuilds we'll install the ball & spring on the synchro that have that type synchro hub...if that is what the customer wants, but as a rule, we use the later kit on our rebuilds. That's my opinion of course..... __________________ VANPELT SALES LLC Cincinnati, Ohio Office: 513-724-9486 www.vanpeltsales.com www.classictransmission.com

05-12-2012, 10:01 AM	#9
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 17,411	Re: Synchros for 39+ transmissions To me it's like an apple and an orange. They are both good to eat but different. I used the C-spring type in my 39 top loader gearbox And Mercury overdrive side shifter because that's what they had in them from new. As Mac mentioned, the key to solid holding of gears under operation has more to do with the capability of those gears to move around under stress. If you keep thrust movement and radial play within specs and the shifter mechanisms in good condition then the transmission will operate correctly. If you thrash it, or neglect it, anything can and will go wrong eventually. Kerby

05-12-2012, 11:09 AM	#10
Henryat1140 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Hereford, Maryland Posts: 218	Re: Synchros for 39+ transmissions >>but no problem if you have the digital dexterity enough to unhook a bra with one hand! Dunno if I could do it today, but generally my technique was to: -Slide right arm around girl's left shoulder (assuming she was sitting in the seat beside you, and turned toward you for a smooch) -Slide right arm under back of blouse, sweater etc. contacting her bare back. Make sure your arm isn't chilly. You don't want to draw attention. -Make sure you are under her left arm, elsewise she may execute the 'female bra unhooking shoulder block'. -Distract girl so she doesn't realize what's coming next -Hook right forefinger over and inside bra main strap This is a crucial moment. If she suspects even a little what you are up to she will twist in the seat and you're done for that attempt. -With right thumb, push right side of strap toward middle of her back, and with a pinching motion ease the strain on the strap and release both hooks. With a three hook bra, this may have to be done in two steps. -Rare back and stare her in the eyes, as if to say "How'd that happen?" It takes practice, but after a hundred or so attempts, you can gain enough agility to do the deed before she notices it's unhooked. I'm suggesting you should do this; at my advanced age and arthritic, decrepit condition I'd probably get socked in the eye, but if you NEED a technique, here it is. Others will surely have improvements or better methods. Photos NOT to follow.