'34 ring/pinion (3.54 set) issues?

[rjhink]

Anyone have problems installing 3.54 gear sets for 1934 banjo?
While I had the rear end apart on a ’34 Cabriolet to fix leaks, I thought I’d put a new 3.54 gear set in it (supposedly Italian and engraved with “40-4209HS 9224 3.54 03/12”). I bought the set from a very reputable vendor, but I can’t get it set up correctly (details below). I did use typical heating/cooling strategies to fit the new bearings as well as a hydraulic press to fully seat the ring gear onto the carrier.

Was there a mid- or late-year production change or variation (i.e., carrier change?) that could have affected the installation? The vendor has not heard of any problems with these gear sets, but has anyone else heard of an issue with any of the gear sets made in 2012? I could be missing something, but I’ve checked things several times and the original 4.11 gear set did work fine.

Further details if the above sounds familiar:
For the carrier, I used one NOS 18-4221/18-4222 carrier bearing set and one new Timken 22325/22168 bearing set. I did measure the total thickness of the new bearings from back of the seat to the center of the cone and they’re only a few thousands (0.003-0.006 in.) thicker than the slightly pitted originals that I removed. With new gear set, if I set the ring/pinion lash to ~0.008 in. with gaskets on the right, the ring gear rubs against the left axle housing on the left and leaves a gap of ~ 0.030 in. between the banjo and left axle housing . . . with the axle housing tightened just so that I can’t turn the ring gear anymore. This also puts the left carrier bearing > 0.030 in. out of contact with the left bearing seat in the axle housing. If I fully seat the carrier bearing on the ring gear side and place to gear/carrier into the left housing, the gear won’t spin unless I pull the bearing away from the seat by at least 0.030 in. The original ring gear spun fine in the left housing with about a 0.25 inch gap between the gear itself and the housing as it spun. At this point, I would have to add a ~0.030 shim to the left carrier bearing and a ~0.030 gasket to the left side of the banjo to resolve both issues.


Although I am new to this era car and Ford Barn, all data that I can seem to find indicate that this was the correct ‘34 rear end for the car since all bearing part numbers matched the originals: the pinion is 10-spline, the original gear set was a 4.11, the banjo is marked 937 and is 3.5” wide, the spring is the correct curved unit, the spider gears have 12 teeth, the axles have 18 teeth, the axle lengths and distance between shackle mounts of the assembled rear end matched data I found online, etc. The only thing that seemed a little odd was that a Ford parts book I have (published by Ford in 1937) does not list the axle housing numbers, which are stamped: 18-4016 and 18-4017 inside the big ends.


MANY thanks if you have any insight. If not, I’ll just have to put the original ring & pinion back in the differential.

[35ragtop]

Have been playing off and on with my 34 rear assembly for several weeks now. I have done a lot of searching and reading on here and the HAMB about various installation combinations, and one thing I do recall was that in some cases the back of the ring gear needs to be relieved (with an angle grinder) to clear the early axle housings. This may be the case with your installation. Try this and see.
regards
Dave

[rotorwrench]

I have an R&P set that was made in Italy. The set was machined well and quality materials were used but the outer circumference of the pinion shaft would not fit the bore of the center section housing. Some of them require the pinion to be chucked in a lathe and ground with tool post grinder back to an outer diameter that will fit through the bore.

This was for the later model banjo rear axle with 6-spline pinion but there may have also been problems with the earlier axle parts reproductions as well. The folks that made them in Italy didn't have all the information they needed to insure proper fit up of all the parts.

Your 9-37 number was the gear tooth count for 4.11:1 R&P set. The 32 through 34 V8 rear axle was the first type used for V8 cars & commercials. They are slightly lighter duty than the later axles and they have different dimensions on the carrier side load Timken bearings than the later ones. If FoMoCo changed a part like your axle housings, they discontinued use of the earlier parts and the later issue parts catalogs reflect the later issued part numbers.

The model 18 V8 rear axle had a more narrow center section than the later units but it used the same bearings as the 35 & 36 set up. They had shorter axles than the 35 & 36 due to the narrow center section. The ring and pinion you have may have been more suited to the 35 & 36 change than the 32 thru 34. Some form of grinding may be required to get the proper dimensions and fit. A person may be able to change the axle configuration but that would be a lot more trouble than a ring modification. You will just have to find out where the interference is and relieve that part just enough to get acceptable clearance for reliable service. Many folks have early cars that have already been updated with later rear axles so I don't know how many folks have run into this problem to date.

[trevo]

I have done this conversion a couple of years ago on my 34 it's worth doing don't hand grind anything take it into your competent machine shop and have it done properly work slowly through the issues rotorwrench has it sorted out for you I did get a diff specialist to set up the diff head worth the 500 bucks saved me a lot of time good luck

[rjhink]

Thanks for your replies! I was hoping that I was not the only one to have an issue. I did think of bringing the ring gear and Carrier set to the local machine shop or to a friend who has a 12 inch lathe to have the angle relieved on the back of the gear. Since it's already mounted on the carrier, they could use a live center on one and and chuck the other end. The ring and pinion set for the 35 and 36 rear end is a different part number, but without having one in hand, I don't know the subtle differences.

[rotorwrench]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I can't tell the differences either. They all used the same carrier so that bolt up should be the same. The difference is likely the mounting distance between the ring gear & pinion to get proper fit with the narrow center section. The 35/36 center section was the follow on part but the 35 thru somewhere in 38 had ten spline pinions instead of 6-spline. The green bible doesn't really list a replacement for the early axle bells. They just quit making them. A person has to take care of the early V8 rear axle assemblies for this reason. Many of the parts were not produced after a certain time period and the parts are getting more rare as time goes by. A lot of folks have tried to modify the 35/36 rear axle parts to work with later Columbia parts and it can be a challenge to get it all to work & look stock.

If a person has a good chuck in a 12 inch lathe and a tool post grinder the job should work with the right size bull nose center in the tail stock. A tool post grinder doesn't apply as much pressure as a tool bit does. I also don't know how hard that ring gear is. It may have to be ground. If it only needs a chamfer or radius on the back outer edge it shouldn't require taking too much material off.

[trevo]

The ring gear set I got was I think from Speedway made in Italy the ring gear is machineable ceramic tips do the trick I assembled the parts measured took it apart machined it reassembled a couple of times to get it right at the same time machined the axle housings and shrunk new bearing sleeves on worth the effort though cruises nicely at 60 mph