The Ford Barn

pzxzqg · 10-30-2015, 05:31 PM

Back in the 60's when I was a kid, dad had me drilling on the inside of the crankshaft pulley on this 1930 a-model sports coupe. I think he thought the crank was threaded and we could use a back-out tool but metal was too hard and I never made much progress. Now that I have the A-model and dad is passed, I'm researching the handcrank. It doesn't look threaded. Will I be able to punch out the handcrank remnants if I can get the pulley off? After additional review, it appears to be inside of the crankshaft itself? How to get it out so I can restore the handcrank? If I continue to drill, what type of bit material will penetrate? Will I need a horizonal press to apply enough pressure?

Big hammer · 10-30-2015, 06:57 PM

Wecome to the ford barn! Yes the crank ratchet is threaded into the end of the crankshaft!
The pulley goes over the end of the crankshaft and the ratchet holds it to the crankshaft !
The threaded part is in the crankshaft! If you miss it up more you will be replacing the crankshaft!!! I thinking you might get a welder to weld a bolt and then maybe turn the threaded part out. Maybe others will have better ideas! Good luck !

Y-Blockhead · 10-30-2015, 07:33 PM

THAT doesn't look good. You may have to find someone in your area that has a EDM Metal Disintegration Service. They will be able to remove it without damage to the crank. http://www.brokentap.com/services.html

But if it has been sitting since the 60's I think the engine may need more than a tune up...

Tom Wesenberg · 10-30-2015, 08:11 PM

I agree with Tbird on how it got broken. You could try a left hand drill bit. Another thing I might try with the crank out of the engine is to weld a pipe to the broken bolt end. Have the outside diameter of the pipe about the same as the bolt thread. Turn up the heat and fill the pipe with weld and let it cool. The use a vice grip on the short pipe to see if it will unscrew.

pzxzqg · 10-30-2015, 08:11 PM

Dad had the engine running without problems in the 60's with crank in existing condition. Engine turns over easily now either by hand on belt or starter. Head cracked at some point but oil drained and looks clean. I'm replacing head with a Synder 5.5:1 and premium gasket. Fuel tank clean. I'm rebuilding carb and distributor. If it's too difficult I'll simply leave the crank as is and not risk screwing it up. It's doesn't sound like it will help removing the pulley. Craftsman does make a horizontal press and carbine or diamond tipped bits are available but if I can't collapse the handcrank enough to remove it safely ... I'm not sure it's worth removing the engine to extract it. I've heard of the welding trick on broken studs, it might be worth a try. Appreciate your experience and advice.

Tom Wesenberg · 10-30-2015, 08:15 PM

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I would use the copper gasket with Copper Coat sprayed on both sides.

jw hash · 10-30-2015, 08:17 PM

at this point there is no need to pull the pulley or crank shaft out. hopefully when you drilled on it before, you drilled it the center. if so you might be able to pull it off. first drill a 1/4" pilot hole you will know when you go through the end of the stud. now use a 3/8" drill. then try an easy out. as long as the threads of the bolt did NOT bottom out it should come out.

pzxzqg · 10-30-2015, 08:27 PM

As a 10 year old I drilled after school for weeks and didn't make much progress. You're right, I should backoff to a 1/4 bit and then increase to a 3/8 but I'm going to need a harder bit or attach a horizontal press to apply more pressure. wish I knew how far the handcrank extended into the shaft so not to do more damage. Hopefully a 3/8 is enough. All I need to do is break the back-off tool in the shaft.

pzxzqg · 10-30-2015, 08:37 PM

Sounds like an MDM is the way to go if I can find a machine shop in Dallas ... one would think Dallas is big enough to warrant one. I'm looking ... and will make some calls.

pzxzqg · 10-30-2015, 09:15 PM

I agree one has to think about how it happened to begin with and it may have been someone trying to break free this motor. I wish Dad were still around to enlighten me. Dad did do a complete restoral from the chassis up and had it running well albeit in the 60's ... so one would think whatever problem caused the handcrank to break off is not part of the problem now. Any idea the diameter of the crank and how deep the broken crank goes into the shaft?

RUNNERBUN · 10-30-2015, 09:17 PM

I have a number of crank ratchet bolts an the threaded section measures differently on each of them. The longest threaded section is 1.1 inches and the shortest is .8 of an inch. I have measured the depth of the threaded hole in a crank shaft it measured 1.7 inches. So I suggest you drill away, you will know when you have broken thru and there is little or no chance of doing any damage to the crank shaft as there will be a cavity of at least .5 of an inch.
When you break thru I suggest that you apply some release agent inside the cavity and allow to soak overnight.

Trust this helps. Good luck

pzxzqg · 10-30-2015, 09:56 PM

Big help to know the size and depth of the threaded bolt. I'm going to backoff to a 1/4" bit and try to get it well centered. Question now is whether to use a carbide bit (which I think I was using in the 60's to no available) or go with a diamond tipped. At that point a carbide 3/8" may do the trick. Left hand bit is a good thought too ... could get lucky (like my golf game). Thanks for the advice.

Mike V. Florida · 10-30-2015, 10:05 PM

I can't add to the advice already given but Welcome to the barn!

John · 10-30-2015, 10:25 PM

Pull the crank and take it to your local machine shop. The shop can set the crank up in a lathe and with precision, drill out the broken off ratchet nut. An easy job for a good shop.

Skeezixx · 10-30-2015, 10:52 PM

Use the electric starter.

mike657894 · 10-30-2015, 11:30 PM

couple of things put oil on the area and let it sit for a day. use a chisel to cut a ledge on the inside diameter and then use a punch to drive the piece rotationally. tedious but usually works after 20 min and six ledges my dad could always get it to go within a few. if you have a dremel cut a slot to turn it with a large screw driver if you can get it in at the right angle. the chisel trick is a industrial machine repair trick.

40 Deluxe · 10-31-2015, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pzxzqg

Back in the 60's when I was a kid, dad had me drilling on the inside of the crankshaft pulley on this 1930 a-model sports coupe. I think he thought the crank was threaded and we could use a back-out tool but metal was too hard and I never made much progress. Now that I have the A-model and dad is passed, I'm researching the handcrank. It doesn't look threaded. Will I be able to punch out the handcrank remnants if I can get the pulley off? After additional review, it appears to be inside of the crankshaft itself? How to get it out so I can restore the handcrank? If I continue to drill, what type of bit material will penetrate? Will I need a horizonal press to apply enough pressure?

From the looks of the picture, it is already drilled significantly off-center. At this point I'd say it would pretty hard to drill a smaller hole on center by hand. The bit will want to go to the center of the current off-center hole. Too easy to ruin the crank at this point. Bite the bullet and disassemble the engine and take the crank to a shop experienced and equipped to do the job right.

Tom Wesenberg · 10-31-2015, 04:23 AM

To get the hole centered you can use a diamond bit in a Dremel and grind towards the center, then start with a 1/8" bit and increase the size. I would use left hand bits because you might get lucky and spin it out. It doesn't appear to be rusty, and since it didn't bottom out, it might not be too tight. A left hand bit or an easy out might work, but don't force it. If it doesn't come, then it's off to the machine shop.

I'd try the welded nut or short pipe first, as I've had good luck with that method.

pzxzqg · 11-30-2015, 07:26 PM

After trying several cobalt bits, I finally resorted to carbide. That was the only bit I made any progress with on a hand drill. But after destroying 3 carbide bits I finally made it thru tonight, got my backout tool in there and after a few good whacks and prayers that I wouldn't break the back-out tool off ... damn thing finally backed out. To think that I started working on this back in the 60's ... wish my dad was still around to tell him the job is finally done. Thanks for telling me the depth of the threads and gap to the crank. Doubt I would have had the confidence to keep drilling without this information.

Big hammer · 11-30-2015, 08:29 PM

Glade it came out, I think you were lucky! Dad must have been watching over you.

10-30-2015, 06:57 PM	#2
Big hammer Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Land of Lincoln Posts: 3,430	Re: Hand Crank Sheared inside of crankshaft pulley Wecome to the ford barn! Yes the crank ratchet is threaded into the end of the crankshaft! The pulley goes over the end of the crankshaft and the ratchet holds it to the crankshaft ! The threaded part is in the crankshaft! If you miss it up more you will be replacing the crankshaft!!! I thinking you might get a welder to weld a bolt and then maybe turn the threaded part out. Maybe others will have better ideas! Good luck !

10-30-2015, 07:33 PM	#3
Y-Blockhead Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Redondo Beach, CA Posts: 6,647	Re: Hand Crank Sheared inside of crankshaft pulley THAT doesn't look good. You may have to find someone in your area that has a EDM Metal Disintegration Service. They will be able to remove it without damage to the crank. http://www.brokentap.com/services.html But if it has been sitting since the 60's I think the engine may need more than a tune up...

10-30-2015, 08:11 PM	#4
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Hand Crank Sheared inside of crankshaft pulley I agree with Tbird on how it got broken. You could try a left hand drill bit. Another thing I might try with the crank out of the engine is to weld a pipe to the broken bolt end. Have the outside diameter of the pipe about the same as the bolt thread. Turn up the heat and fill the pipe with weld and let it cool. The use a vice grip on the short pipe to see if it will unscrew.

10-30-2015, 08:11 PM	#5
pzxzqg Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Allen, TX Posts: 11	Re: Hand Crank Sheared inside of crankshaft pulley Dad had the engine running without problems in the 60's with crank in existing condition. Engine turns over easily now either by hand on belt or starter. Head cracked at some point but oil drained and looks clean. I'm replacing head with a Synder 5.5:1 and premium gasket. Fuel tank clean. I'm rebuilding carb and distributor. If it's too difficult I'll simply leave the crank as is and not risk screwing it up. It's doesn't sound like it will help removing the pulley. Craftsman does make a horizontal press and carbine or diamond tipped bits are available but if I can't collapse the handcrank enough to remove it safely ... I'm not sure it's worth removing the engine to extract it. I've heard of the welding trick on broken studs, it might be worth a try. Appreciate your experience and advice.

10-30-2015, 08:15 PM	#6
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Hand Crank Sheared inside of crankshaft pulley Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I would use the copper gasket with Copper Coat sprayed on both sides.

10-30-2015, 08:17 PM	#7
jw hash Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Auburn Washington Posts: 2,662	Re: Hand Crank Sheared inside of crankshaft pulley at this point there is no need to pull the pulley or crank shaft out. hopefully when you drilled on it before, you drilled it the center. if so you might be able to pull it off. first drill a 1/4" pilot hole you will know when you go through the end of the stud. now use a 3/8" drill. then try an easy out. as long as the threads of the bolt did NOT bottom out it should come out.

10-30-2015, 08:27 PM	#8
pzxzqg Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Allen, TX Posts: 11	Re: Hand Crank Sheared inside of crankshaft pulley As a 10 year old I drilled after school for weeks and didn't make much progress. You're right, I should backoff to a 1/4 bit and then increase to a 3/8 but I'm going to need a harder bit or attach a horizontal press to apply more pressure. wish I knew how far the handcrank extended into the shaft so not to do more damage. Hopefully a 3/8 is enough. All I need to do is break the back-off tool in the shaft.

10-30-2015, 08:37 PM	#9
pzxzqg Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Allen, TX Posts: 11	Re: Hand Crank Sheared inside of crankshaft pulley Sounds like an MDM is the way to go if I can find a machine shop in Dallas ... one would think Dallas is big enough to warrant one. I'm looking ... and will make some calls.

10-30-2015, 09:15 PM	#10
pzxzqg Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Allen, TX Posts: 11	Re: Hand Crank Sheared inside of crankshaft pulley I agree one has to think about how it happened to begin with and it may have been someone trying to break free this motor. I wish Dad were still around to enlighten me. Dad did do a complete restoral from the chassis up and had it running well albeit in the 60's ... so one would think whatever problem caused the handcrank to break off is not part of the problem now. Any idea the diameter of the crank and how deep the broken crank goes into the shaft?

10-30-2015, 09:17 PM	#11
RUNNERBUN Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Queensland Australia Posts: 640	Re: Hand Crank Sheared inside of crankshaft pulley I have a number of crank ratchet bolts an the threaded section measures differently on each of them. The longest threaded section is 1.1 inches and the shortest is .8 of an inch. I have measured the depth of the threaded hole in a crank shaft it measured 1.7 inches. So I suggest you drill away, you will know when you have broken thru and there is little or no chance of doing any damage to the crank shaft as there will be a cavity of at least .5 of an inch. When you break thru I suggest that you apply some release agent inside the cavity and allow to soak overnight. Trust this helps. Good luck __________________ Adjust your points with gentle blows of a 2 pound hammer

10-30-2015, 09:56 PM	#12
pzxzqg Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Allen, TX Posts: 11	Re: Hand Crank Sheared inside of crankshaft pulley Big help to know the size and depth of the threaded bolt. I'm going to backoff to a 1/4" bit and try to get it well centered. Question now is whether to use a carbide bit (which I think I was using in the 60's to no available) or go with a diamond tipped. At that point a carbide 3/8" may do the trick. Left hand bit is a good thought too ... could get lucky (like my golf game). Thanks for the advice.

10-30-2015, 10:05 PM	#13
Mike V. Florida Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Florida between Sarasota and TampaSouth Florida Posts: 14,054	Re: Hand Crank Sheared inside of crankshaft pulley I can't add to the advice already given but Welcome to the barn! __________________ What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II

10-30-2015, 10:25 PM	#14
John Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 214	Re: Hand Crank Sheared inside of crankshaft pulley Pull the crank and take it to your local machine shop. The shop can set the crank up in a lathe and with precision, drill out the broken off ratchet nut. An easy job for a good shop.

10-30-2015, 10:52 PM	#15
Skeezixx Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 426	Re: Hand Crank Sheared inside of crankshaft pulley Use the electric starter.

10-30-2015, 11:30 PM	#16
mike657894 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Bay City Michigan Posts: 1,050	Re: Hand Crank Sheared inside of crankshaft pulley couple of things put oil on the area and let it sit for a day. use a chisel to cut a ledge on the inside diameter and then use a punch to drive the piece rotationally. tedious but usually works after 20 min and six ledges my dad could always get it to go within a few. if you have a dremel cut a slot to turn it with a large screw driver if you can get it in at the right angle. the chisel trick is a industrial machine repair trick.

10-31-2015, 04:23 AM	#18
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Hand Crank Sheared inside of crankshaft pulley To get the hole centered you can use a diamond bit in a Dremel and grind towards the center, then start with a 1/8" bit and increase the size. I would use left hand bits because you might get lucky and spin it out. It doesn't appear to be rusty, and since it didn't bottom out, it might not be too tight. A left hand bit or an easy out might work, but don't force it. If it doesn't come, then it's off to the machine shop. I'd try the welded nut or short pipe first, as I've had good luck with that method.

11-30-2015, 08:29 PM	#20
Big hammer Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Land of Lincoln Posts: 3,430	Re: Hand Crank Sheared inside of crankshaft pulley Glade it came out, I think you were lucky! Dad must have been watching over you.