The Ford Barn

Tim Ayers · 10-15-2015, 12:23 PM

Not sure why I was thinking about this, but there seems to be a few different combustion chamber shapes used with varying success on 4 cyl. aftermarket heads.

I've seen a crow's foot-type, the Winfield-type seems to be unique, a Model K (I think) Harley type, some crazy looking types that have "channels" cast into them in an attempt to direct the charge.

Curious why the A/M haven't tried some of these different designs with V8 engines?

It seems like majority of the heads are of similar design. Some may have a few tweaks, but overall the combustion chamber shapes are similar.

Is it because it works the best? If so, beside the intake and exhaust coming in and going out of the side of the block, curious what makes the 4cly. so different from the V8?

keith oh · 10-15-2015, 12:30 PM

Look up grooved heads, interesting to say the least.

Kahuna · 10-15-2015, 12:52 PM

What's AM heads

NealinCA · 10-15-2015, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahuna

What's AM heads

After Market

Kahuna · 10-15-2015, 01:13 PM

Thanks Neal
Jim

Kahuna · 10-15-2015, 01:18 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Tim, I sent you a PM.
Now, the most powerful head design for a flathead, regardless of MFG is actually shaped like a tooth. That is, if you had a tooth pulled completely out and intact, and laid it on it's side. You can visualize it that way.
Another thing is that the really fast flatheads all use a flat top piston.
Last: The Wonderful Harley designs really cannot be applied to a Ford. It's really apples & oranges different

Tim Ayers · 10-15-2015, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahuna

Tim, I sent you a PM.
Now, the most powerful head design for a flathead, regardless of MFG is actually shaped like a tooth. That is, if you had a tooth pulled completely out and intact, and laid it on it's side. You can visualize it that way.
Another thing is that the really fast flatheads all use a flat top piston.
Last: The Wonderful Harley designs really cannot be applied to a Ford. It's really apples & oranges different

Jim:

Thanks a lot. I think I've read that is the reason the Harley design can't be used is the head bolt location on the flathead V8 gets in the way?

Tim

This may be a pipe dream, but part of the reason I ask is I've been finding myself sketching out various design ideas and whatnot as I work.

I'm thinking of using a 3D printer I have access to make a few a rough prototypes of some different design ideas.

Ol' Ron · 10-15-2015, 04:08 PM

I spemt several months on a flow bench designing a combustion chamber,But found there were too many variables. The sad part was the best one for flow, wasn't much better than the worst one. I ended up with a piston with a wedge shaped head inro a combustion chamber with a wedge shape as well the angles were 7 deg on the piston and 8 in the chamber. This had two advantages, it provided a higher cR with out impeding flow.
I do carve my own chamber using Offy heads as a starter because they have more material to play with. I start by plungin the Valve reliefs at 5 degeres and a transfer area at 8begs in the oppicite direction. The exit of the transfer area at 45 degs. If I was casting a street head I'd do the same, but locate the spark plug in the transfer area at 8 degs.
with all this said, the engine will breath better with a 12 deg transfer area and a 60 deg exit, How you loose allot of CR. I'll post some pictures of this.
Going in for caterac operation in dec, might help me type beter.

Tom Walker · 10-15-2015, 04:17 PM

Please post drawings Ron, the whole combustion chamber area is very interesting.

Pete · 10-15-2015, 07:04 PM

"Another thing is that the really fast flatheads all use a flat top piston.
Last: The Wonderful Harley designs really cannot be applied to a Ford. It's really apples & oranges different"

Boy, that's sure a bunch of wrong info.

Flathead · 10-15-2015, 07:06 PM

This is ground zero for getting power out of a Flathead.

texas webb · 10-15-2015, 07:41 PM

Good luck on your eye work Ron.

Marvin/TN · 10-15-2015, 10:16 PM

Good Luck on the surgery as a rule it's a piece of cake and takes about 15 to 20 mins. I had both eyes done in 2008. I still need glasses to read things up close and for computer work. For computer work I use glasses from Dollar Tree store. They only cost a dollar and work very well for me.

Bruce Lancaster · 10-16-2015, 11:20 AM

On the four cylinder comparison...there are a lot of geometrical differences between the A-B and the V8's. The fours had vertical valves, 8's are tilted toward bore...4 Cyl chamber is big in terms of valve to cylinder distance, stock 4 has slight piston pop-up, and of course path of ports doesn't have the helpful slant toward the bottoms of the valves in 4's...
Over the 1935-6-7 period the V8 transitioned from flattop pistons with various chambers to slight domes with a big quench area separate from the flow area...this was basically a change to Ricardo design, and I think got Ford sued, but that basic chamber was used on all the flatheads from then to the end.

10-15-2015, 12:23 PM	#1
Tim Ayers Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NJ Posts: 6,921	Has anyone used a successful 4 cly. combustion chamber for A/M V8 heads? Not sure why I was thinking about this, but there seems to be a few different combustion chamber shapes used with varying success on 4 cyl. aftermarket heads. I've seen a crow's foot-type, the Winfield-type seems to be unique, a Model K (I think) Harley type, some crazy looking types that have "channels" cast into them in an attempt to direct the charge. Curious why the A/M haven't tried some of these different designs with V8 engines? It seems like majority of the heads are of similar design. Some may have a few tweaks, but overall the combustion chamber shapes are similar. Is it because it works the best? If so, beside the intake and exhaust coming in and going out of the side of the block, curious what makes the 4cly. so different from the V8? Last edited by Tim Ayers; 10-15-2015 at 01:43 PM.

10-15-2015, 12:30 PM	#2
keith oh Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Millersport, central ohio Posts: 668	Re: Has anyone used a successful 4 cly. combustion chamber for A/M V8 heads? Look up grooved heads, interesting to say the least.

10-15-2015, 12:52 PM	#3
Kahuna Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NorCal Posts: 2,617	Re: Has anyone used a successful 4 cly. combustion chamber for A/M V8 heads? What's AM heads

10-15-2015, 01:13 PM	#5
Kahuna Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NorCal Posts: 2,617	Re: Has anyone used a successful 4 cly. combustion chamber for A/M V8 heads? Thanks Neal Jim

10-15-2015, 01:18 PM	#6
Kahuna Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NorCal Posts: 2,617	Re: Has anyone used a successful 4 cly. combustion chamber for A/M V8 heads? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Tim, I sent you a PM. Now, the most powerful head design for a flathead, regardless of MFG is actually shaped like a tooth. That is, if you had a tooth pulled completely out and intact, and laid it on it's side. You can visualize it that way. Another thing is that the really fast flatheads all use a flat top piston. Last: The Wonderful Harley designs really cannot be applied to a Ford. It's really apples & oranges different

10-15-2015, 04:08 PM	#8
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,985	Re: Has anyone used a successful 4 cly. combustion chamber for A/M V8 heads? I spemt several months on a flow bench designing a combustion chamber,But found there were too many variables. The sad part was the best one for flow, wasn't much better than the worst one. I ended up with a piston with a wedge shaped head inro a combustion chamber with a wedge shape as well the angles were 7 deg on the piston and 8 in the chamber. This had two advantages, it provided a higher cR with out impeding flow. I do carve my own chamber using Offy heads as a starter because they have more material to play with. I start by plungin the Valve reliefs at 5 degeres and a transfer area at 8begs in the oppicite direction. The exit of the transfer area at 45 degs. If I was casting a street head I'd do the same, but locate the spark plug in the transfer area at 8 degs. with all this said, the engine will breath better with a 12 deg transfer area and a 60 deg exit, How you loose allot of CR. I'll post some pictures of this. Going in for caterac operation in dec, might help me type beter.

10-15-2015, 04:17 PM	#9
Tom Walker Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Leicester. UK Posts: 404	Re: Has anyone used a successful 4 cly. combustion chamber for A/M V8 heads? Please post drawings Ron, the whole combustion chamber area is very interesting.

10-15-2015, 07:04 PM	#10
Pete BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wa. Posts: 5,423	Re: Has anyone used a successful 4 cly. combustion chamber for A/M V8 heads? "Another thing is that the really fast flatheads all use a flat top piston. Last: The Wonderful Harley designs really cannot be applied to a Ford. It's really apples & oranges different" Boy, that's sure a bunch of wrong info.

10-15-2015, 07:06 PM	#11
Flathead Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern Maine Posts: 1,617	Re: Has anyone used a successful 4 cly. combustion chamber for A/M V8 heads? This is ground zero for getting power out of a Flathead.

10-15-2015, 07:41 PM	#12
texas webb Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: San Antonio Texas Posts: 637	Re: Has anyone used a successful 4 cly. combustion chamber for A/M V8 heads? Good luck on your eye work Ron.

10-15-2015, 10:16 PM	#13
Marvin/TN Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chattanooga, TN area Posts: 832	Re: Has anyone used a successful 4 cly. combustion chamber for A/M V8 heads? Good Luck on the surgery as a rule it's a piece of cake and takes about 15 to 20 mins. I had both eyes done in 2008. I still need glasses to read things up close and for computer work. For computer work I use glasses from Dollar Tree store. They only cost a dollar and work very well for me.

10-16-2015, 11:20 AM	#14
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: Has anyone used a successful 4 cly. combustion chamber for A/M V8 heads? On the four cylinder comparison...there are a lot of geometrical differences between the A-B and the V8's. The fours had vertical valves, 8's are tilted toward bore...4 Cyl chamber is big in terms of valve to cylinder distance, stock 4 has slight piston pop-up, and of course path of ports doesn't have the helpful slant toward the bottoms of the valves in 4's... Over the 1935-6-7 period the V8 transitioned from flattop pistons with various chambers to slight domes with a big quench area separate from the flow area...this was basically a change to Ricardo design, and I think got Ford sued, but that basic chamber was used on all the flatheads from then to the end.