Berg Radiator excessive overflow loss

[barkleydave]

Here is an update on my Berg Radiator I recently installed.
I just completed a 300 mile tour in N.E. Ky and W VA. Long steep grades and pushed her pretty hard up these hills... home of Hatfields and McCoys.

After approx. 150 miles (truck ran around 150 on the road) We stopped and were at idle and notice temp. gauge was pegged!

Check radiator and we added about a gallon of water. It was coming out the overflow. Mind you engine was running cool entire time.

Drove another 150 miles and added 3/4 gallon.

I am not using a thermostat should I be? What might be causing this?

Have sent inquiry to Gery at Bergs.

Thanks

[eagle]

A gallon low is a lot. Must have a boil point somewhere in the engine causing you to lose coolant. I don't believe a thermostat is going to help. In my humble opinion you either have a compression leak into the coolant chamber somewhere, do not have the timing right, or gunk has moved out of your engine and has plugged your new radiator. I guess I don't know any history, but are you sure the old radiator was bad? Use a lazer thermometer to test the radiator for hot/cool spots. If that is the case the radiator is plugged. Have the radiator "sniffed" for combustion gasses. That will tell you if you have a bad head gasket or crack. Triple check your timing and how you are running the advance lever. Too bad when you buy a new radiator and it doesn't fix the problem. Too expensive to shrug off. Thats why its always important to troubleshoot without changing anything until you clearly id the problem. Maybe you did, not trying to second guess you... just my thoughts. I think 1 gallon of water converts to about 1700 sq feet of steam, thats a lot of steam.

[Mike V. Florida]

Wow, I think the whole system is only 3 gals. On your specific radiator where in the over flow located? in the center, towards the motor, away from the motor? How high is it as it relates to the cap?

When was the water pump changed?

Things to try;

1) With a piece of hose, raise the overflow tube to under the cap.
2) Bill's favorite is to place a roofing nail, (large head, thin shank) in the over flow tube.

[Tom Wesenberg]

What's the engine history: newly rebuilt, used as is, always ran hot, etc.?

I too wonder if some junk from the engine is now laying on top of some of the radiator tubes.

BTW, were any holes taped shut while the radiator was off? It doesn't take a mouse very long to build a nest and plug up the works.

[barkleydave]

Guys the ENGINE DOES NOT RUN HOT! Temps climbing very steep hills NEVER got above 160 degrees. If fact it is running too cool when on the flats. Also no steam just pushing out the overflow. ( on tour always cars behind me and exhaust was clean even under extreme load. Now we were pushing these cars in the mountains full throttle pushing up these grades. Timing is 2 degrees BTDC but I run her about half way or less climbing grades. No pings whatsoever.

Overflow tube is about an inch below the top of the cap all the way back towards the motor.
Water pump is New Leakless.

Radiator was off the for less than 30 min. with us standing there so no mouse scenario.

Checked block with temp gun. Temps were equal across block front to rear no hot spots. High idle block was reading approx. 170 degrees evenly.

No gunk or rust in engine checked while radiator was out.

I also checked the flow when engine at high idle. The new pump really moves a lot of water! The New Berg also has a baffle so I am baffled?

[Mitch//pa]

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how high are you filling the level ???

[barkleydave]

about 1/2 inch above tubes

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Try the ROOFING NAIL!
Have a smog shop sniff your radumator, in case the head gasket's leaking. Have you re-torqued the head several times?
Backflush, in case there's rust flakes stuck in the top of radumator tubes.
Any hose clamps leaking??
Are you over advancing on hills? Sorta' match advance to car speed---like, 1/2 SPEED--1/2 ADVANCE. We sometimes OVER ADVANCE, hoping it will give us MORE power----WRONG!!!!!!
Are there times when you climb hills in high, & should be using second gear?
Bill W.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by barkleydave

about 1/2 inch above tubes

i have used quite a bit of bergs rads and keep the HOT level not COLD just at the baffle line to a hair below...
never needed a nail on a bergs

[Mitch//pa]

i would definitely install a stat since most of the time your running below 160

all this info being said i would then ck for a head gasket type issue as metinoned if still not resolved

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by barkleydave

about 1/2 inch above tubes

A simple overflow tank, hooked to the bottom of the overflow tube, will maintain the level much higher. Just THINK, with the level just 1/2" above the tubes, means that the WHOLE top tank is EMPTY! Thet's why they call it a RESERVOIR
If I'm sounding "SMART ASSED"--Thet's what I'm trying to do!! Have to get attention some way This message wuz APPROVED by my TRUSTY Dog
Bill W.

[eagle]

Let me get this straight. Your temp gauge stayed below 160 until you stopped and idled, then it pegged? After you sat and idled? If thats the case you must have lost water right then or just finally got down to critical level. You state that the engine is NOT running hot, but you are losing water. If the water is staying in its liquid form, then there is a leak somewhere. Otherwise the ONLY way it can be lost is you are somewhere heating up enough to "flash" the water into steam, which expands rapidly, pushing water out the overflow. If there is NO vaporizing into steam, you CANNOT push water out the overflow as the pump CANNOT pump more water on the output side of the pump than it pulls in on the inlet side. Impossible no matter who tells you otherwise. The other scenario is that if there is a restriction somewhere in the system, the vacuum side of the pump can cavitate, which in turn causes the hot water to vaporize quickly, again pushing water out of overflow. Not so likely but possible. However, a leaky head gasket or crack will do the same thing, add volume to the system and/or boil the water at the point of hot gas entrance, and then again push the water out. Any of these things will not necessarily cause your temp gauge to peg, until the water reaches a critical low level.

[inex01]

Originally Posted by barkleydave

Guys the ENGINE DOES NOT RUN HOT! Temps climbing very steep hills NEVER got above 160 degrees. If fact it is running too cool when on the flats. Also no steam just pushing out the overflow. ( on tour always cars behind me and exhaust was clean even under extreme load. Now we were pushing these cars in the mountains full throttle pushing up these grades. Timing is 2 degrees BTDC but I run her about half way or less climbing grades. No pings whatsoever.

Overflow tube is about an inch below the top of the cap all the way back towards the motor.
Water pump is New Leakless.

Radiator was off the for less than 30 min. with us standing there so no mouse scenario.

Checked block with temp gun. Temps were equal across block front to rear no hot spots. High idle block was reading approx. 170 degrees evenly.

No gunk or rust in engine checked while radiator was out.

I also checked the flow when engine at high idle. The new pump really moves a lot of water! The New Berg also has a baffle so I am baffled?

The EXACT happened to me this weekend when I drove a 100 mile trip one way to York PA and then 100 back, used 3/4 gallon of water, temp was perfect the entire trip and never did boil over. My radiator is a HD Brassworks that I installed last year, my engine only has 6K on her and was re-built in 2012, I think what is happening is at a constant high RPM the water is steaming? and then pumping out the overflow, remember these cars are really not designed to run that high a RPM for any length of time. I added a can of stop leak water pump lube and I am going to install a thermostat based on a club member suggestion and see if that helps or just add water every now and then if I have a major issue will drive till she dies and then rebuild another over the winter.

[P.S.]

When you get a gallon or so low, the Model A water pump is no longer submerged, and will cavitate. Assuming you were losing coolant, and driving uphill, the coolant would have been forced by gravity away from the radiator and toward the engine block, and resubmerged the pump, despite being low enough to be below the pump vanes on level ground. Then, once back on level ground, the coolant will level out (much of it heading back into the radiator) and cause the pump to cavitate again, causing the engine to overheat very quickly.

As for how the coolant was lost, too many variables. All considerations above could lead to slow steady coolant loss.

[barkleydave]

Yup to all the above. Our club rolls pretty darn hard! What was interesting it never overheated under HEAVY LOAD... As long as air was moving through radiator all was fine until it reached a point at idle the level must have gotten too low for pump to move it through. It moved up into the red within a min. or less! Kept engine running and slowly added water and down she came. Pulled plugs and all were light brown with no indication of water fouling.

I am not going to go the roofing nail fix on an 800 buck radiator. Will have to run it down. Otherwise it ran perfectly and averaged 17 mpg on the trip.

Going up these grades were some times more than a mile with pedal to the medal and lugging it down to 35 mph. We were in traffic and dropping to 2nd was not much of an option unless I got off the road and ran the shoulder at 20 mph.

Others had to add coolant but not as much as I did. I will report on findings when I sort it out!

Did the "sniff" test not very scientific but I figured if hot gases were the cause I thought I might smell something or have some effect on color of coolant. All were negative no smell no color change.
Thanks a bunch for the suggestions.

[inex01]

(I am not going to go the roofing nail fix on an 800 buck radiator. Will have to run it down. Otherwise it ran perfectly and averaged 17 mpg on the trip.
Going up these grades were some times more than a mile with pedal to the medal and lugging it down to 35 mph. We were in traffic and dropping to 2nd was not much of an option unless I got off the road and ran the shoulder at 20 mph.)

This is the same as my car during my trip this past Saturday, but I averaged 16.8 because I ran my GAV about 1/2 out because it seemed to struggle less on long inclines, but I never went under 40 MPH, also ran her retarded up the incline so did use more fuel but was easier on the Babbitts

[grumpyoldsman]

hate to say it but this is why I wont own a v28-29A the one I had would empty the rad every hill I went up. the only way I could keep water in it was to plug the overflow no more over heating. just try it on a short drive.

[barkleydave]

I just ordered a NAPA block test kit. Will be able to tell if CO combustion gas is getting into the cooling circuit.

Chuck I 2nd the GAV at 1/2 which is where I keep it most the time. I run about 3 degrees BTDC and get around 20+ degrees cam advance. I run no more advance than 3/4. There was mention of hills.... LOL trucks were dragging down to 30 mph on the grades!

3-5 degrees BTDC is the recommendation from F.S. Ignitions at idle which is the ignition I am using.

Will post results in a day or two.

[inex01]

Originally Posted by barkleydave

I just ordered a NAPA block test kit. Will be able to tell if CO combustion gas is getting into the cooling circuit.

Chuck I 2nd the GAV at 1/2 which is where I keep it most the time. I run about 3 degrees BTDC and get around 20+ degrees cam advance. I run no more advance than 3/4. There was mention of hills.... LOL trucks were dragging down to 30 mph on the grades!

3-5 degrees BTDC is the recommendation from F.S. Ignitions at idle which is the ignition I am using.

Will post results in a day or two.

I generally run mine around 2 - 4 degrees and my GAV a little past 1/4 open, but where I live it is pretty much level, what block kit are you getting? I am interested because your car and mine are really experiencing the same issue

[Tom Wesenberg]

That's another advantage of having a hot water heater. It gives the engine an extra small radiator and an extra path for the coolant flow, so it doesn't all have to go through the radiator. Some people have had to use the heaters while crossing hot desert areas out west, even in more modern cars.

I agree with Mitch to run a thermostat.

This is an interesting problem, and I wonder if the ignition system you use is part of the problem?
Also do you have a higher compression head?