The Ford Barn

russcc · 03-28-2015, 09:42 AM

Putting together a 59L for engine in the '29 roadster, on an original '32 frame. Will be using the stock type water pumps, and a 1949 Ford fan. The generator will be side mount, on a head. The Navarro "Racing" two pot has no provision for a "generator mount, so I will be fabricating one that lines up with the 2nd pulley. The ignition will be a Harmon & Collins. So my question is; what stock front pulley is the right one for this combination. I currently have a '49 Ford fan on a 8RT in the car, and it lines up and works perfectly. Thank you Fordbarners.

rotorwrench · 03-28-2015, 12:28 PM

If you go single belt, you can remove the front sheave from the 42 through 48 crank pulley. If you end up with a custom dual belt set up, you will likey have to align your custom fan installation to the stock 42 thru 48 double sheave pulley or fabricate a custom pulley set up.

russcc · 03-28-2015, 03:57 PM

Hi Rotorwrench, thank you for your response. Can I use the same front pulley as the 2 sheave 8RT I am currently running in the car. That 49 Ford fan is perfect, it clears the hoses and radiator, lines up right and has the right amount of adjustment. So I guess the question is can you use the later pulley on the earlier motor, 8BA on a 59L.

rotorwrench · 03-28-2015, 05:34 PM

The pulleys differ in that the early type has no seperate seal sleeve like the 8BA types do. The other problem will be the water pump sheave alignment. The 8BA family of engines with the load-o-matic distributor had to extend the pulley sheaves out for the belt on the right side to clear the distributor. Your 37 to 48 pump sheaves fit closer to the block than the 8BA types.

Most AV8s have to use a custom fan in order to use the single belt. I've seen all sorts of ideas on the HAMB. Most opt for the generator type fan but you have to shorten the blades on those. Getting the fan to clear all the obstacles without a generator mount takes a good bit of engineering for a good fit. That's one of the hardest parts of an AV8 build when you don't alter the firewall or radiator locations.

Bored&Stroked · 03-29-2015, 07:59 AM

Couple things to think about if using a stock 32 Frame and original front cross-member:

1) Before You Use 49-53 Stuff . . . If you mount the engine in exactly the same spot as Henry did the 32 V8, then you'll not be able to run a double-pulley in general - as you'd be hitting the front cross-member. You'll also not be able to run any of the 49-53 pulleys - as they moved the belts out from the block . . . to clear the new side-mount distributor. Now - folks have put the later engines in and hacked front cross-members or tilted the engine up - but that isn't how I'd do it!

If it Looks Like a Duck, Quacks Like a Duck . . . .

2) Use 59x Parts: The easiest thing is to run the early single wide-belt pulley and single 59X water pumps. This will get the engine to sit down low as it should and you'll not have any pulley issues with the front cross member. You can cut the motor mounts off the pumps if you want them to look cleaner - which is what I'm about to do to the pumps for my 42 Merc motor that is going in my 32. I don't like the unused 'bull-horns' sticking out in the front.

3) 32 Motor Mounts: If you're using an original 32 frame, then you can even use the stock 32 motor mounts from the front of the engine block to the front cross-member (not having to customize the front cross-member for new mounts). All flathead blocks continue to have these 7/16 mounting holes in the fronts.

Note: You do have to grind/notch the mounts just a bit to clear the fan belt - easy to do, but necessary.

4) 32 Fan: Assuming your manifold has the mounting flange for a generator on front - but no room for a generator. What I used to do is take an old 33-36 fan-mount generator and use it to make a 'fan idler' for the front - and then use the stock 32 fan on the car (clears everything if you have 32 type parts). Essentially you pull the guts out of the generator, shorten the steel housing down to about 1/2" or so, make a new "stubby" shaft and put it back together - now you have a place to mount your fan. If you want a picture of one, I think I still have one I ran on my 34 out in the shop.

5) Generator: You go ahead and run a side-mount generator as you mentioned - with a wide belt pulley. You'll run a single fan belt for the engine, water pumps, fan idler and generator.

Here is a picture of a 59x in a stock 32 frame - notice the crank pulley. It only clears the cross-member by about 1/2" and sits down low (belt groove is below the lip of the stock cross-member).

59ABin32.jpg

rotorwrench · 03-29-2015, 10:04 AM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

The 32 frame gives you a little more room to work with than a model A frame. If you have an aftermarket front cross member, you shouldn't have a big problems getting water pumps & fans in there. I've seen a 50 Merc engine in a 32 frame with pumps, fan, distrubutor, and all. Model Engineering makes the offset lower radiator hose adapters that help fit the 32 style V8 radiators that are available. Bored & Stroked has a good alternative for the stock 32 front cross member.
http://www.modelengineeringco.com/mec.htm

russcc · 03-30-2015, 06:36 PM

Thank you all for your responses. A little background, the 8RT fits very nicely in the original '32 frame. The K member is in the stock position, the trans is a '39, and the 8RT front pulley clears the Model A front cross member, which has been trimmed. So after some measurements, it look like the earlier front pulley that I plan to use on the 59L with the '49 fan should would out just fine. See photo of the pulley. Not sure what year it is. The inner pulley should line up with the earlier water pumps, and the outer one with the '49 Ford fan. May or may not have to shim the fan mount or shorten the fan shaft a little, but it should be duck soup. Will post photos of the finished product.

Bruce Lancaster · 03-30-2015, 07:00 PM

The 59 type double pulley...outer sheave is in same location as 8RT, so both are same overall. Inner sheave of 59 type is closer to block than 8RT and of course matches the location of the '37-48 pumps.
59 type engines were sold after WWII as replacement engines for '32-38 and those came with a single sheave pulley used OEM on '39 standards and for all '32-38 installations. '39-41 needed the fan type pulley, except '39 standard.
If you cut away the front sheave on '42-8 pulley or the fan bracket on '39-41 you will have a pulley functionally identical to the '39 standard.
Crankshafts from '39-53 are roughly an inch longer in front than '32-38 and so need the protruding center on any pulley used. Earlier pulleys end at about the face of the sheave.
Also...on '49-53 pulleys...early ones, essentially the '49 Model year, have the sling area made integral with pulley like '32-48. Pulleys made about 1950-53 use the separate seal area. The '49 pulley and the combination of '50=53 pulley and the little sleeve are interchangeable.

Bored&Stroked · 03-31-2015, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by russcc

The inner pulley should line up with the earlier water pumps, and the outer one with the '49 Ford fan. May or may not have to shim the fan mount or shorten the fan shaft a little, but it should be duck soup. Will post photos of the finished product.

Hmmmm . . . regardless of the front cross-member, if the radiator and hood are in the stock positions, I would be suspect that there would not be room for a fan that far forward of the block. But - I haven't tried it before and I'm sure thousands of others have.

I don't have one of those early double pulleys, if you could measure the center on center dimension of the two belt grooves, I'll measure my 32 and see where that would put the fan in relation to the radiator core.

B&S

russcc · 03-31-2015, 06:59 PM

B&S Be happy to take some measurements and photos of the 8RT with the '49 Fan. The radiator is original '29 tanks, with double out lets added, and re-cored with an 11 fins per inch core. The radiator is mounted in the stock location on the Model A cross member. The original Mor-dropped axle is in the stock '32 position located with the original wishbone. The original '29 roadster body is set back a little on the frame for firewall clearance. This required an aluminum hood and side panels fabricated by my long time friend Dan Curley, a master craftsman. I have spare double pulley like the one in the photo if you need one.

russcc · 04-01-2015, 04:08 PM

Hi B&S

The center to center distance from sheave sheave to sheave is 2 -7/8". From the back of the back sheave to end of the seal surface is 1". See photos.

russcc · 04-01-2015, 05:30 PM

Correction on 2 of the photos

Bored&Stroked · 04-02-2015, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by russcc

Correction on 2 of the photos

Thanks RussCC: Can you take a measurement from the front of the block surface (like where the water pumps or timing cover mount) to the radiator core?

Your combination seems to work. What I do "think" I notice is that the water pump lower outlets are in alignment with the radiator, which to me means the engine has to be 1.5 to 2" higher than the original 32 type engine would have sat. Otherwise, you would require special radiator hoses (or the aluminum adapters like I have) to make the 'S' curve to align them. I will measure the 59X water pump outlets to 32 frame rail distance and post it here (with a picture to denote it). I can't get to this for a few weeks - but I will post at that time.

By having the engine a bit higher, you are also able to have the lower crank pulley above the cross member (which would probably work with a 32 cross member as well). If the engine sat as low as a 59X on original motor mounts (32 cross, 32 mounts), then the crank pulley would not clear the cross.

All good stuff! This kind of details can really help a guy who is planning a build and trying to figure out what works with what!

Take care and Happy Easter!

B&S

03-28-2015, 09:42 AM	#1
russcc Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,871	Front pulley for a 59L Putting together a 59L for engine in the '29 roadster, on an original '32 frame. Will be using the stock type water pumps, and a 1949 Ford fan. The generator will be side mount, on a head. The Navarro "Racing" two pot has no provision for a "generator mount, so I will be fabricating one that lines up with the 2nd pulley. The ignition will be a Harmon & Collins. So my question is; what stock front pulley is the right one for this combination. I currently have a '49 Ford fan on a 8RT in the car, and it lines up and works perfectly. Thank you Fordbarners.

03-28-2015, 12:28 PM	#2
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 17,411	Re: Front pulley for a 59L If you go single belt, you can remove the front sheave from the 42 through 48 crank pulley. If you end up with a custom dual belt set up, you will likey have to align your custom fan installation to the stock 42 thru 48 double sheave pulley or fabricate a custom pulley set up.

03-28-2015, 03:57 PM	#3
russcc Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,871	Re: Front pulley for a 59L Hi Rotorwrench, thank you for your response. Can I use the same front pulley as the 2 sheave 8RT I am currently running in the car. That 49 Ford fan is perfect, it clears the hoses and radiator, lines up right and has the right amount of adjustment. So I guess the question is can you use the later pulley on the earlier motor, 8BA on a 59L.

03-28-2015, 05:34 PM	#4
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 17,411	Re: Front pulley for a 59L The pulleys differ in that the early type has no seperate seal sleeve like the 8BA types do. The other problem will be the water pump sheave alignment. The 8BA family of engines with the load-o-matic distributor had to extend the pulley sheaves out for the belt on the right side to clear the distributor. Your 37 to 48 pump sheaves fit closer to the block than the 8BA types. Most AV8s have to use a custom fan in order to use the single belt. I've seen all sorts of ideas on the HAMB. Most opt for the generator type fan but you have to shorten the blades on those. Getting the fan to clear all the obstacles without a generator mount takes a good bit of engineering for a good fit. That's one of the hardest parts of an AV8 build when you don't alter the firewall or radiator locations.

03-29-2015, 07:59 AM	#5
Bored&Stroked Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 5,723	Re: Front pulley for a 59L Couple things to think about if using a stock 32 Frame and original front cross-member: 1) Before You Use 49-53 Stuff . . . If you mount the engine in exactly the same spot as Henry did the 32 V8, then you'll not be able to run a double-pulley in general - as you'd be hitting the front cross-member. You'll also not be able to run any of the 49-53 pulleys - as they moved the belts out from the block . . . to clear the new side-mount distributor. Now - folks have put the later engines in and hacked front cross-members or tilted the engine up - but that isn't how I'd do it! If it Looks Like a Duck, Quacks Like a Duck . . . . 2) Use 59x Parts: The easiest thing is to run the early single wide-belt pulley and single 59X water pumps. This will get the engine to sit down low as it should and you'll not have any pulley issues with the front cross member. You can cut the motor mounts off the pumps if you want them to look cleaner - which is what I'm about to do to the pumps for my 42 Merc motor that is going in my 32. I don't like the unused 'bull-horns' sticking out in the front. 3) 32 Motor Mounts: If you're using an original 32 frame, then you can even use the stock 32 motor mounts from the front of the engine block to the front cross-member (not having to customize the front cross-member for new mounts). All flathead blocks continue to have these 7/16 mounting holes in the fronts. Note: You do have to grind/notch the mounts just a bit to clear the fan belt - easy to do, but necessary. 4) 32 Fan: Assuming your manifold has the mounting flange for a generator on front - but no room for a generator. What I used to do is take an old 33-36 fan-mount generator and use it to make a 'fan idler' for the front - and then use the stock 32 fan on the car (clears everything if you have 32 type parts). Essentially you pull the guts out of the generator, shorten the steel housing down to about 1/2" or so, make a new "stubby" shaft and put it back together - now you have a place to mount your fan. If you want a picture of one, I think I still have one I ran on my 34 out in the shop. 5) Generator: You go ahead and run a side-mount generator as you mentioned - with a wide belt pulley. You'll run a single fan belt for the engine, water pumps, fan idler and generator. Here is a picture of a 59x in a stock 32 frame - notice the crank pulley. It only clears the cross-member by about 1/2" and sits down low (belt groove is below the lip of the stock cross-member). 59ABin32.jpg Last edited by Bored&Stroked; 03-30-2015 at 06:38 AM.

03-29-2015, 10:04 AM	#6
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 17,411	Re: Front pulley for a 59L Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) The 32 frame gives you a little more room to work with than a model A frame. If you have an aftermarket front cross member, you shouldn't have a big problems getting water pumps & fans in there. I've seen a 50 Merc engine in a 32 frame with pumps, fan, distrubutor, and all. Model Engineering makes the offset lower radiator hose adapters that help fit the 32 style V8 radiators that are available. Bored & Stroked has a good alternative for the stock 32 front cross member. http://www.modelengineeringco.com/mec.htm

03-30-2015, 07:00 PM	#8
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: Front pulley for a 59L The 59 type double pulley...outer sheave is in same location as 8RT, so both are same overall. Inner sheave of 59 type is closer to block than 8RT and of course matches the location of the '37-48 pumps. 59 type engines were sold after WWII as replacement engines for '32-38 and those came with a single sheave pulley used OEM on '39 standards and for all '32-38 installations. '39-41 needed the fan type pulley, except '39 standard. If you cut away the front sheave on '42-8 pulley or the fan bracket on '39-41 you will have a pulley functionally identical to the '39 standard. Crankshafts from '39-53 are roughly an inch longer in front than '32-38 and so need the protruding center on any pulley used. Earlier pulleys end at about the face of the sheave. Also...on '49-53 pulleys...early ones, essentially the '49 Model year, have the sling area made integral with pulley like '32-48. Pulleys made about 1950-53 use the separate seal area. The '49 pulley and the combination of '50=53 pulley and the little sleeve are interchangeable.

03-31-2015, 06:59 PM	#10
russcc Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,871	Re: Front pulley for a 59L B&S Be happy to take some measurements and photos of the 8RT with the '49 Fan. The radiator is original '29 tanks, with double out lets added, and re-cored with an 11 fins per inch core. The radiator is mounted in the stock location on the Model A cross member. The original Mor-dropped axle is in the stock '32 position located with the original wishbone. The original '29 roadster body is set back a little on the frame for firewall clearance. This required an aluminum hood and side panels fabricated by my long time friend Dan Curley, a master craftsman. I have spare double pulley like the one in the photo if you need one.