Seat Belt Installation

[John Stone]

I read the posts about how seat belts should be in all Model A's but please leave the opinions in the other thread.

Now the question: How do you attach the belts in the center of the floor pan cars? (400A, Vicky, 2Dr Phaeton) I have been thinking about it for a number of years but have never come up with what I thought would be structurally sound enough to handle the stress of 2 people in an accident. I have them in the back seat of my 400A (you know for the grandkids).

I have seat belts in my 29 Roadster. Put a piece of angle iron across under the body for attach points.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

John, you said to leave opinions in the other thread but you are asking a very controvercial question.

I will ask the question this way back to you. How strong do you think that floor pan is that is nailed (tacked) to wooden subrails?

Next question, in a roll over, what is the G force of the combined weight of the two passengers, ...and will the sheetmetal floor pan withstand that kind of sudden force?

And finally, is it possible the seat belts would give a false sense of security to a passenger?

.

[John Stone]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

John, you said to leave opinions in the other thread but you are asking a very controvercial question.

I will ask the question this way back to you. How strong do you think that floor pan is that is nailed (tacked) to wooden subrails?

Next question, in a roll over, what is the G force of the combined weight of the two passengers, ...and will the sheetmetal floor pan withstand that kind of sudden force?

And finally, is it possible the seat belts would give a false sense of security to a passenger?

.

That is why I am asking, not telling. I believe there has to be a lot of reinforcing done. The floor pan is not strong enough. I am hoping someone has a solution.

[Dennis L Oberer]

Yes it could give a false sense of security..

.in the accident the passenger might have time to weigh the odds of whether his seat belt will protect him as it should or take the chances of being ejected.

And then they could decide to unbuckle it if they did feel a false sense of security.

Great logic

Incredible.......

Dennis L Oberer
Green Bay WI

[Jim Brierley]

I ran a piece of 1/4"x2" angle iron from side-to-side that is bolted to the frame, then bolted the belts to it.

[John Stone]

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Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

I ran a piece of 1/4"x2" angle iron from side-to-side that is bolted to the frame, then bolted the belts to it.

Did you run the angle iron below the floor pan? Was it attached to the lower frame flange? The center is really close to the drive shaft on my car.

[Tom Endy]

On my Vic I attached both center belts to the steel plate the front seat pegs rest on. Since the plate is only bolted to wood I added another brace under the car from the plate to the cross member. The two outside belts are attched to the body to frame bolts just behind the front seats. I don't have seat belts for the rear seat.

I have heard all the arguments about the wisdom of not attaching belts to the frame in case the body separates ftom the frame in a crash. However, my concern is the ejection factor. The passenger seat belt is more to prevent the passenger from tumbling out the door in a left turn if the door unlatches.

Any crash in a Model A where the body separates from the frame you are more than likely going to be killed anyway.

Tom Endy

[mkmskm]

I installed belts in my Tudor primarily because the door on rare occassion pops loose using the same angle iron approach. Looking at the substructure of a Model A I think you have to drive them knowing that in a head on collision with a Hummer the belts will just keep the coroner from having to fetch your body from the ditch.

[Bruce,Upstate NY]

Has anyone put shoulder belts in a two door car?

[denis4x4]

I use 2" channel iron bolted to the frame. There was a piece in Street Rodder on putting shoulder belts in a tudor. Do a search on the HAMB as I think it was also posted there.

[Glenn C.]

Seat belt installation for some of the Model A's can be quite challenging to obtain strong anchor points. It is much easier to decide on mounting locations while the body is off the frame and to pre-fit the support steel. The important object here is to install a length of 2" channel iron across the frame from body mounting bolts.
The center fastening point for the belts can be affixed to this same piece of steel.
Use grade 8 bolts to replace the original body mounting bolts, and to fasten the belts to the channel iron.

I am not sure about all insurance policies, so I can't comment on that, but I do know that most provinces and states, really don't give a darn whether the vehicle originally came out with seat belts or not, other than in this day and age the vehicle that you are riding in, is equiped with seat belts. ( you may want to contest the law in the courts)

[jerry shook]

I had belts in my 31 4/D when i was rear ended by two teen age girls texing on there phone .knock me into the car i was waiting on to turn left.totaled all 3 cars , with my seat belt on the back of the seat broke and i was laying backward ,if the seat had not broke it would have broke my neck. I wear seat belts every time i travel . they are not full prof but enough to wear them.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Dennis L Oberer

Yes it could give a false sense of security..

.in the accident the passenger might have time to weigh the odds of whether his seat belt will protect him as it should or take the chances of being ejected.

And then they could decide to unbuckle it if they did feel a false sense of security.

Great logic

Incredible.......

Dennis L Oberer
Green Bay WI

Dennis, I seemingly always get a little 'heartburn' after you have posted a comment regarding something I've said.


I will say it again for clarification, when someone has installed seat belts in something that might be inadequately installed (i.e.: installing them to a piece of angle iron that was bolted to a pan that is nailed onto a piece of wood using brads), ...does an unknowing passenger buckle up thinking they are safe during an accident or severe impact?

I think they can, ...and do think they feel they are safe! This is why I will not professionally install seat belts in any vehicle at my shop that did not come equipped from the factory with them! And, --it is not that we do not know how. It's because the liability is too great in this litigious society. I deal with many hobbyist on a daily basis that are very intelligent individuals but when it comes to matters such as this, they are naive with regard to many things that many of us here just take for granted. It's not their fault or meant as a way to belittle them, it is just facts based on my experiences, ...your mileage may vary!!



BTW, I am not suggesting that someone not wear seatbelts, ...I'm only suggesting that people who install them need to be certain they are are installing them properly to avoid legal issues.

.

[Kevin in NJ]

The wood silled A does not have great structure to handle seatbelts.

From a physic standpoint the seatbelts are there to absorb energy. If they pull loose the still held you in place for a fraction of a second and with any luck long enough to prevent really bad injuries. In any event, it is all about statistics. Odds are much better that that the accident will be lower speed and in front of you. So just about any seatbelt tied to reasonable structure will at least do something. The reasonable structure being something other then the seat frame.

That being said.

Consider the structure. You have a pretty strong piece of wood under the seats. It is even stronger front to rear. So if you set up so the seatbelt will pull forward and up then you are going to put the force on a diagonal on the wood. That is the strongest point. If you have a substantial chunk of metal going rearward to another structure point you have now divided the forces.

Will it handle the forces of a 60 MPH head on? It does not matter, you are pretty screwed in the A. Cruising along having fun at 40 MPH the will do a lot to hold you in place.



Seatbelts in a cabriolet

[John Kuhnast]

I agree with Brent. I have seat and shoulder belts in my closed cab pickup.If and when I sell the truck I will first remove the belts for the very reasion he stated.

[Bruce Adams]

I ran 2 inch angle iron side to side attached to the frame, THEN I ran perforated steel aft too another frame member, running the seat belt attachment with grade 8 bolts through the angle iton, with the longitudinal psp giving additional structure.
This on my S/W 68C.

You can't ignore opinions and suggestions?
Sometimes differing opinions help prevent errors.

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

... the liability is too great in this litigious society....

The very reason that you will never get installation instructions when you buy the belts from any of the Model A parts suppliers.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by mkmskm

I installed belts in my Tudor primarily because the door on rare occassion pops loose using the same angle iron approach. Looking at the substructure of a Model A I think you have to drive them knowing that in a head on collision with a Hummer the belts will just keep the coroner from having to fetch your body from the ditch.

Hmmm, "door pops loose"...in my Tudor!
Others here say same of other models also..yeah, seat belts might keep a person from 'sliding' out...another good thot why to have seat belts.
On a roadster, being more flexible than most models(having no top structure)same door thingy happens!
But, there are those HERE who will/have instructs you/me that THAT would never happen 'in a properly restored car'..yeah, right.
I knew a 'professional' restorer of over 100 model As, now deceased. He told me that model A doors will/did pop open...just depended on amount of flex the individual car was subject to. Soo, seat belts may be a good thing?

[Fred K-OR]

Originally Posted by John Stone

Did you run the angle iron below the floor pan? Was it attached to the lower frame flange? The center is really close to the drive shaft on my car.

I ran a 1 1/2" angle iron under the frame and bolted down through the angle iron. Put spacers from my floor boards to the angle iron. Don't know if that is right or wrong but that is the way I did it.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I believe maybe some of this advice has kinda gone "off-topic" here. Did I not read the initial question from Mr. Stone was how to install belts on a 400A (Convertible Sedan), a Victoria, or a DeLuxe Phaeton that has the floor pan? Allow me to post a picture showing what the floor pan looks like so some can see the differences between this body and others and why some of the comments might not apply very well...

.