The Ford Barn

CooperClaude · 09-21-2014, 07:44 AM

I purchased a 29 Model A Tudor and did some cosmetic restoration, my first Model A. While warming it up for a trip to registration office I had a fire . Short of long tale all wiring in dash, terminal box , and to distributor and generator fried . I replaced all this with help from a Georgia Model A catalogue and a few phone calls . Replaced all wiring mentioned plus distributor and generator. Put several fuses in circuits including starter . Engine started and ran for 1 hour, no problems. Battery later went dead and traced to a sticking stoplight switch . Engine now starts sporadically. Acts like battery dead but it's not . Now what ?

battery connections ? How to test ?

Mitch//pa · 09-21-2014, 07:58 AM

a common issue is your battery cable to frame connection, you should unbolt it and clean it down to bare metal.
an ohm meter can be used to test for resistance in circuit connections.

maybe that is the root of your original problem , causing your generator to run away

Willie Krash · 09-21-2014, 09:39 AM

I agree with Mitch but I have to ask, why did you replace the distributor?
Are you sure the battery is OK? Still 6V positive ground? 6V cables right?

CooperClaude · 09-21-2014, 05:08 PM

Distributor wires fried as was inside. New battery now . Everything sill 6 volt. May swap for 8 volt battery in winter for better cranking power. I've done this with numerous V-8 flatheads.

Tom Wesenberg · 09-25-2014, 06:28 AM

You don't need an 8 volt battery. I just got home from a week on the road and the 6 volt battery in my Studebaker is over 10 years old and works fine. Wish the Stude still had the option of a hand crank, just in case it's needed, but the car is easy to push start should the need arise.

We need more details of the original shorting problem.

Anytime you have a starting problem, do the easy checks first. Two easy checks are for fuel and spark. Pull the choke for a couple compression strokes, then release it and you should see fuel run out the carb intake. To check for spark, just hold the coil wire 1/4" from a head nut while you push the starter rod (with the key on), and look for a good hot blue spark.

Joe K · 09-25-2014, 06:47 AM

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About the only thing that I can think of that would cause even the cable to the distributor (and distributor itself) to catch fire would be a failed (shorted) coil. Or mebbe the popout/cabled switch?

Still the same coil? Original coil or modern repop? Ditto on the popout/cable?

Both of these are not known for their durability.

Joe K

CooperClaude · 09-25-2014, 07:14 AM

Original shorting problem originally traced back to idiotfied wiring . Headlights were not hooked up as was single taillight so no problems with them . all other wiring fried . First noticed working horn smoking at wiring . Jerked wires off. Other fires started while in shop getting meter . Engine off as was key .Very quick fire and much smoke. After getting to battery and jerking wires loose all damage done . Generator wiring fried but when regulator on top disassembled points looked fine .Replaced regulator with a modern electronic one and it charged fine . Terminal box melted as were all wires. Removed dash plate and noted some idiot connected wires with a twist and electrical tape. Ammeter melted. Paint burned off car behind dash plate. Sanded down, masked and sprayed several coats with a rubberized paint to insulate . Called local Georgia A Model supplier named Mike's Affordable parts for advice . Ended up with a complete wiring harness , model distributor with points on top, alternator (not installed), and numerous other small parts such as connector for ammeter etc. As a test I bought ammeter from Mac's and Snyder's . Snyder's best, sorry Mac's. Purchased new battery from Tractor supply, only one who sold 6 volts ! I installed a fuse device at starter , a quick disconnect switch and fuse in circuits for lights. Without hooking up lights and horn it finally cranked and ran but as mentioned a sticking stoplight switch ran battery down overnite. Replaced . Now I DID replace ground with proper ground cable into original hole which I did grind down . Car came with a lengthy regular battery cable connecting positive to a bolt on side of transmission . Will go back to that , probably a reason for it . Being inquisitive I pulled head looking for a leak source on driver's side . Found cheap head gasket worn out in two places. Replaced with a modern copper one supposedly filled with some type of plastic(?) anti leak stuff . While inside engine I cleaned off piston tops, ground tops of valves using an ancient tool that belonged to my father and cleaned head itself .Didn't like looks of head studs and replaced all, including nuts . Replaced plugs. Pulled oil pan and nothing fell out. Retorqued all nuts bolts etc with a torque wrench and replaced paper gasket with a better one . Torqued head cold, hot and cold again. In retrospect I should have pulled engine and rebuilt the darned thing. I'm sure I left out something small, I have a lotta shop hours in this car. It's beautiful and I'm real hesitant to replace running gear with Ranger, Pinto or Chevy parts. I'm going to change ground wire back later. Will keep everyone posted . Yes, this is my first Model A and it's been a real learning experience. Thanks for all help guys !

Joe K · 09-25-2014, 07:48 AM

I've read your description of the fire above, and it's certainly hard to ascribe any single component as being "responsible."

Maybe best to just go on.

I would do this by eliminating all the un-necessaries. Check out the wiring diagram (which you have probably seen) at http://www.webjunk.com/modela/wp-con...amcolor2sm.jpg

Eliminate all but the battery and ignition and then give it a try and hope for reliable operation. Do this by lifting the black and yellow coming from the generator to the terminal box, lifting the generator belt, and by jumpering the ammeter (or between left and right thumbnuts on terminal box)

If you can't then get reliable operation - then it's got to be something connected with this active circuit. Distributor points, pop-out, coil. A common issue with reproduction popouts is an intermittant open circuit. Bend the cable a little and the open circuit goes away or comes on. Usually the reproduction coils end up just plain not working (open circuit on the high voltage side) Otherwise, should things seem to run fine, add more to the engine run circuit and take the test to the next step.

The generator you should be able to "bench test" with a washing machine motor and fanbelt. Or possibly in the car should you get the engine working reliably. Be sure to run the generator against a battery - without the battery to hold it back, a Model A generator will put out up to 35 volts which can (but not always) cause a winding failure on this account. And a generator test can begin by bypassing the cutout - since you're there to prevent back current and take the place of a cutout - albiet a slow acting (and possibly forgetful) one. (Hint - don't forget and walk away leaving the battery connected to what is effectively a stalled motor.)

This reverse process of elimination may eventually find your issue - but don't forget to question what you have done before. And be prepared to repeat tests.

Time consuming yes. But at least part of the pleasure is in the hunt for issue - and the remaining pleasure is in successful solution.

Good luck,
Joe K

09-21-2014, 07:44 AM	#1
CooperClaude BANNED Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: LaGrange, Georgia Posts: 9	Electrical Problems I purchased a 29 Model A Tudor and did some cosmetic restoration, my first Model A. While warming it up for a trip to registration office I had a fire . Short of long tale all wiring in dash, terminal box , and to distributor and generator fried . I replaced all this with help from a Georgia Model A catalogue and a few phone calls . Replaced all wiring mentioned plus distributor and generator. Put several fuses in circuits including starter . Engine started and ran for 1 hour, no problems. Battery later went dead and traced to a sticking stoplight switch . Engine now starts sporadically. Acts like battery dead but it's not . Now what ? battery connections ? How to test ? Last edited by CooperClaude; 09-21-2014 at 07:45 AM. Reason: spelling errors

09-21-2014, 07:58 AM	#2
Mitch//pa BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks County, PA Posts: 11,454	Re: Electrical Problems a common issue is your battery cable to frame connection, you should unbolt it and clean it down to bare metal. an ohm meter can be used to test for resistance in circuit connections. maybe that is the root of your original problem , causing your generator to run away Last edited by Mitch//pa; 09-21-2014 at 08:19 AM.

09-21-2014, 09:39 AM	#3
Willie Krash Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Phoenix, Oregon Posts: 661	Re: Electrical Problems I agree with Mitch but I have to ask, why did you replace the distributor? Are you sure the battery is OK? Still 6V positive ground? 6V cables right? __________________ Mike Stitt "A business that make nothing but money is a poor business." -Henry Ford Last edited by Willie Krash; 09-21-2014 at 10:27 AM.

09-21-2014, 05:08 PM	#4
CooperClaude BANNED Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: LaGrange, Georgia Posts: 9	Re: Electrical Problems Distributor wires fried as was inside. New battery now . Everything sill 6 volt. May swap for 8 volt battery in winter for better cranking power. I've done this with numerous V-8 flatheads.

09-25-2014, 06:28 AM	#5
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Electrical Problems You don't need an 8 volt battery. I just got home from a week on the road and the 6 volt battery in my Studebaker is over 10 years old and works fine. Wish the Stude still had the option of a hand crank, just in case it's needed, but the car is easy to push start should the need arise. We need more details of the original shorting problem. Anytime you have a starting problem, do the easy checks first. Two easy checks are for fuel and spark. Pull the choke for a couple compression strokes, then release it and you should see fuel run out the carb intake. To check for spark, just hold the coil wire 1/4" from a head nut while you push the starter rod (with the key on), and look for a good hot blue spark.

09-25-2014, 06:47 AM	#6
Joe K Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Cow Hampshire Posts: 4,611	Re: Electrical Problems Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) About the only thing that I can think of that would cause even the cable to the distributor (and distributor itself) to catch fire would be a failed (shorted) coil. Or mebbe the popout/cabled switch? Still the same coil? Original coil or modern repop? Ditto on the popout/cable? Both of these are not known for their durability. Joe K __________________ Shudda kept the horse.

09-25-2014, 07:14 AM	#7
CooperClaude BANNED Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: LaGrange, Georgia Posts: 9	Re: Electrical Problems Original shorting problem originally traced back to idiotfied wiring . Headlights were not hooked up as was single taillight so no problems with them . all other wiring fried . First noticed working horn smoking at wiring . Jerked wires off. Other fires started while in shop getting meter . Engine off as was key .Very quick fire and much smoke. After getting to battery and jerking wires loose all damage done . Generator wiring fried but when regulator on top disassembled points looked fine .Replaced regulator with a modern electronic one and it charged fine . Terminal box melted as were all wires. Removed dash plate and noted some idiot connected wires with a twist and electrical tape. Ammeter melted. Paint burned off car behind dash plate. Sanded down, masked and sprayed several coats with a rubberized paint to insulate . Called local Georgia A Model supplier named Mike's Affordable parts for advice . Ended up with a complete wiring harness , model distributor with points on top, alternator (not installed), and numerous other small parts such as connector for ammeter etc. As a test I bought ammeter from Mac's and Snyder's . Snyder's best, sorry Mac's. Purchased new battery from Tractor supply, only one who sold 6 volts ! I installed a fuse device at starter , a quick disconnect switch and fuse in circuits for lights. Without hooking up lights and horn it finally cranked and ran but as mentioned a sticking stoplight switch ran battery down overnite. Replaced . Now I DID replace ground with proper ground cable into original hole which I did grind down . Car came with a lengthy regular battery cable connecting positive to a bolt on side of transmission . Will go back to that , probably a reason for it . Being inquisitive I pulled head looking for a leak source on driver's side . Found cheap head gasket worn out in two places. Replaced with a modern copper one supposedly filled with some type of plastic(?) anti leak stuff . While inside engine I cleaned off piston tops, ground tops of valves using an ancient tool that belonged to my father and cleaned head itself .Didn't like looks of head studs and replaced all, including nuts . Replaced plugs. Pulled oil pan and nothing fell out. Retorqued all nuts bolts etc with a torque wrench and replaced paper gasket with a better one . Torqued head cold, hot and cold again. In retrospect I should have pulled engine and rebuilt the darned thing. I'm sure I left out something small, I have a lotta shop hours in this car. It's beautiful and I'm real hesitant to replace running gear with Ranger, Pinto or Chevy parts. I'm going to change ground wire back later. Will keep everyone posted . Yes, this is my first Model A and it's been a real learning experience. Thanks for all help guys !

09-25-2014, 07:48 AM	#8
Joe K Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Cow Hampshire Posts: 4,611	Re: Electrical Problems I've read your description of the fire above, and it's certainly hard to ascribe any single component as being "responsible." Maybe best to just go on. I would do this by eliminating all the un-necessaries. Check out the wiring diagram (which you have probably seen) at http://www.webjunk.com/modela/wp-con...amcolor2sm.jpg Eliminate all but the battery and ignition and then give it a try and hope for reliable operation. Do this by lifting the black and yellow coming from the generator to the terminal box, lifting the generator belt, and by jumpering the ammeter (or between left and right thumbnuts on terminal box) If you can't then get reliable operation - then it's got to be something connected with this active circuit. Distributor points, pop-out, coil. A common issue with reproduction popouts is an intermittant open circuit. Bend the cable a little and the open circuit goes away or comes on. Usually the reproduction coils end up just plain not working (open circuit on the high voltage side) Otherwise, should things seem to run fine, add more to the engine run circuit and take the test to the next step. The generator you should be able to "bench test" with a washing machine motor and fanbelt. Or possibly in the car should you get the engine working reliably. Be sure to run the generator against a battery - without the battery to hold it back, a Model A generator will put out up to 35 volts which can (but not always) cause a winding failure on this account. And a generator test can begin by bypassing the cutout - since you're there to prevent back current and take the place of a cutout - albiet a slow acting (and possibly forgetful) one. (Hint - don't forget and walk away leaving the battery connected to what is effectively a stalled motor.) This reverse process of elimination may eventually find your issue - but don't forget to question what you have done before. And be prepared to repeat tests. Time consuming yes. But at least part of the pleasure is in the hunt for issue - and the remaining pleasure is in successful solution. Good luck, Joe K __________________ Shudda kept the horse. Last edited by Joe K; 09-25-2014 at 07:58 AM.