39-41 experts settle this debate

[rockfla]

This has been a topic of discussion before and what prompted this post IS....I was told my wire loom cover on my 39 Mercury was incorrect being painted body color...."It is supposed to be black"!!! Well.....Here is a factory Photo of a 39 Mercury 4 door town sedan (just like mine) presumably at the Rouge Plant (note 39 Truck behind) AND the wire loom cover is "Clearly" body color!! I have what I believe are ALL versions of the wire loom covers from 39 to 41 and two are black and two are body color, one off my car and the blue one shows NO evidence of ever being painted black. SO....what say the experts???

[Kube]

Robert, I'll attempt to clarify this for you.
1) You must keep in mind that publicity photos are not always "accurate" in what was actually produced. Publicity photos were more often than not posed.
2) The wire cover was supposed to be painted black. Did any plant on one day or another paint them body color? Perhaps.
The fact remains, they were supposed to be painted black.

As a side note of sorts, I'd researched and wrote my book "It's Ford for '40" on the pretense of what was supposed to be. There were a few well documented anomalies that I'd included in my writings.
One that comes to mind was the squared off trim on the deluxe grille. They were supposed to be replaced with the spear end trim from job #1. They were supposed to be...
It has been well documented that a large number of cars were built with the squared ends.

Although there have been a few cars that have shown up with body color wire covers, this has been so very infrequent, well, in my opinion, it can't withstand judging criteria.

[woodiewagon46]

Well, I'm no expert, but it would make sense to me that they were painted black. The only reasoning that I could come up with is that on the assembly line workers would just pick up a cover and install it. If it was body color they would need a box of every color cover and would not have time to seek out a particular color. Believe me, I have been fooling with antique Ford's since 1962 and know of many of the "oddities", so who knows?

[Bored&Stroked]

I will have to go out and check my 40 Merc . . . only problem, the car is painted black! LOL

[rockfla]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

I will have to go out and check my 40 Merc . . . only problem, the car is painted black! LOL

Here is a 40 Merc being lowered down BUT no loom cover seems present yet

[petehoovie]

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Originally Posted by rockfla

Here is a 40 Merc being lowered down BUT no loom cover seems present yet

[mercurycyclone]

Rockfla first I will address the photo with the five wire covers.
#1 green cover. Early 39 mercury 99A-14600
#2 black cover 39 - 40 Ford 91A-14600
#3 Sand colored cover. 39 - 40 Mercury 99A-14600
#4 black cover 41 Ford Mercury 11A-14600
#5 black cover 42 - 48 Ford Mercury 21A-14600

I have seen three 39 - 40 Mercury covers that were body color that I believe were factory I have attached photos of two of them. I have never seen a FORD cover any other color than black that I think was factory applied.

[rockfla]

mercurycyclone


The one 41 Merc cover is BLUE which appears to have always been that way!!

[DavidG]

With all due respect to the comments above, for purposes of Early Ford V8 Club judging, no one has offered the one thing that carries the day, namely documentation, which in this case would be copies of the engineering drawings of the subject covers which normally indicate finish, be it paint or otherwise.

By the same token, in fairness multiple exceptions to what is "supposed to be" cannot be ignored, if for no other reason than it was and remains a business and the assembly line was not shut down just because the wrong color wiring cover was the only one on hand. While some assembly plant photos from Ford's archives are posed, not all of them are by any stretch of the imagination. If they were, that second photo with one worker standing on the rear of that light colored Mercury and another worker half way into the engine compartment would not exist given its safety implications.

[rockfla]

Thank you David, #3 on my list of 39 Mercury things to investigate IF the Benson Ford Research facility ever opens back up to the general public

[Model51]

rockla - DavidG beat me to the comment about documentation. I just got a drawing from the BFRC for an obscure truck part. Since you know the part number, why not ask them to identify all of the engineering drawings they have on this part number and then pick what you think is the best one. It's free to find out if a drawing exists, but it's $30 per print.
I used as many engineering drawings as I could get my hands on when I wrote my book and while they aren't perfect, it's something that I can say with certainty was the way Ford intended the part to be and the drawing is what Ford used to inspect parts made by others to be sure it met the quality and characteristics they wanted.
Dave

[Terry,OH]

What is the color, if any, of the inside of the painted covers?

[Kube]

David, I trust you realize you have earned my deepest respect. For those following this thread, rest assured, he (David) is as sharp as they come. I have learned a lot from the man and am confident there's a lot more he will teach me.

I tend to agree with your previous post with only a tiny bit of room for discussion.

I think it was quite sharp of you to note the guys in an unsafe predicament. I am not so certain that would preclude this photo from being staged. As you know, safety in those days was not a huge concern. Perhaps the photographer desired a photo of the "down and dirty" of the assembly line??? Food for thought?

As far as an assembly line not being stopped because the lack of "correct" (intended) piece was not immediately available... of course it wasn't.
Still, in this particular case, I'd need to see some documentation to convince me these covers were painted body color on a regular basis. It would be more costly to do so than paint them all black.


I'd went to great lengths with my book to document what was intended to allow a "standard" by which to judge by.
I remain open to editing my book should documentation be presented that refutes anything I'd discovered in my experience and research.
Hey, the learning process is a large part of why I enjoy restoring these vehicles.

[34fordy]

"Man o Man" I love it when the HEAVYWEIGHTS get to sparring a bit. That is when a flyweight like myself gets SO much information and education. This is what makes this forum so interesting. I like the hunt more than the capture!

[Kube]

Originally Posted by 34fordy

"Man o Man" I love it when the HEAVYWEIGHTS get to sparring a bit. That is when a flyweight like myself gets SO much information and education. This is what makes this forum so interesting. I like the hunt more than the capture!

Funny as heck!
No sparring with David. Nearly always, I go seeking knowledge.

[Model51]

Paint color is the hardest to document. Most Ford Engineering Drawings just have a note "See Painting Specifications". From what I've been told, there used to be a master list linking part numbers to paint specifications. The paint specifications provide the color and the drawing the shape. The master table provided the link. I was told no copy of this list survived. So maybe some things will be lost to history. It's still fun to try and figure it out.

[34fordy]

Originally Posted by Kube

Funny as heck!
No sparring with David. Nearly always, I go seeking knowledge.

I just couldn't come up with the right word at the time. Maybe "disseminating facts" would have been a bit more appropriate. More respectful for sure!

[35fordtn]

Rockfla,
I read in the engine Forman’s log from 1940 or 41 in the BFRC that mercury transmissions had a orange stripe on the bellhousing area. This way on the assembly line (I presume) a ford did not accidentally get built with the 022a gear set the mercury cars had. It is possible the fords had black wiring covers and the mercurys had body color given they have a different part number. From a assembly line standpoint black makes more sense. I’ve been around some spectacular 40 fords and even just sold one with 14k miles. They all had black. I have never paid attention to nor owned a mercury to compare.

Ps to anyone going to the BFRC The engine forman logs were my favorite look through of all the material I dug through in two days. It’s especially interesting in the 32 logs

[rockfla]

Kube, Dave, DavidG, Michael, MercuryCyclone


I will get with Dave (Model51) as to the "proper" protocol for accessing the BFRC on line/through email as I have now 4 things on the 39 Mercury to "research". My Mercury is an "early" car #10006. I have "several" things on my car that are NOT the same as on every other 39 Mercury I have seen, including our 39 Mercury Coupe (12/39) production 30,000+ frame number. AS to the loom cover, I post pictures of "colored" covers because THAT is what I question and we all know the common believe is "Black" only so why post those. I have seen 39 & 40 with both black AND body color (Hence the post) and I believe the latter (and Michael's Ford-Black, Mercury-Body color theory) (AND NO offense KUBE) BUT WHY would Ford take the time to paint a "little" cover like we are discussing body color for a "Staged" photo "ONLY" and do a black cover in normal production?? I believe the Merc's with black covers are from "mostly" restored cars and they are black because the common thought is black. AS DavidG stated, the Engineered drawing will most likely settle this debate.....I also wonder IF maybe at "first" and early in Mercury's production they were painted body color and found that the labor involved removing it down the line to run the wiring was more effort than first thought and "reverted" back to black like on Fords and installing them later on down the line AFTER the wiring was installed (NOTE IN presumed staged photo NO wiring was installed at that point). Here is another 40 I photographed and my common belief is most people doing repaints, I believe, will paint something the color it already IS and to my way of thinking IS why leave the cover on the car IF repainting and go through ALL the effort of covering all the wiring entering and exiting that cover holding it tight to the firewall when removal of 4 #12 tapping screws and its out of the way and easy covering of the wiring for repaint PLUS the screw head would be painted too. mine are not AND the attached photo of a 40 Merc are not. SO my theory of changing back to black is "questioned" by 40 Merc covers being body color??? SUCH a big debate for such a small somewhat insignificant detail in the scheme of things!!!!

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by rockfla

ALL the effort of covering all the wiring entering and exiting that cover holding it tight to the firewall when removal of 4 #12 tapping screws and its out of the way and easy covering of the wiring for repaint PLUS the screw head would be painted too. mine are not AND the attached photo of a 40 Merc are not. SO my theory of changing back to black is "questioned" by 40 Merc covers being body color??? SUCH a big debate for such a small somewhat insignificant detail in the scheme of things!!!!